When [Spoiler] yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler]?

[SeerSGB]

Re: When

Spoiler

yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Spoiler

Trying to justify it as cinematic genius is simply inane.

Good thing no one was trying to call it "cinematic genius" then, huh? How does one even make the leap from us saying that there was ample set-up and emotional motivation for the scream to pretending we're calling it genius?

Because as they say: a rose, by any other name....

Trying to justify the motivation for and execution of a line that comes from a character who shouldn't have that kind of reaction is a huge stretch. Furthermore, it was unrealistic. How many people, in the real world, scream the name of an opponent when they play their hand? It's unrealistic and dumb. If Spock has just *SCREAMED*, to show that he'd gone off the deep end, that would have been more believable and original.

Kirk's response in TWOK was, at the very least, a way of trying to trick Khan into thinking he'd "won." It was *supposed* to be over-acting. There was a method to the madness. The writers of STiD missed that in-the-face subtlety. But then again, these are the same writers who had the Vengeance pounding the crap out of the Enterprise on Earth's front porch, with no forethought to the fact that there might/should be an external defensive response.

I could Nimoy's Spock doing something like that. Same Spock that, with a big goofy smile, grabbed Kirk when he found out he wasn't dead at the end of Amok Time, or had fun teasing his old friend by putting Savvik in charge of taking the Enterprise out of drydock in TWOK, or was putting the moves on Plasus daughter in Cloud Minders.

Spock's never been 100% emotionless. That's what the big deal about him going back to Vulcan between the series and TMP was: He was trying to purge himself of emotion and failed.

 

[M'Sharak]

Re: When

Spoiler

yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Spoiler

It's a reference to a dramatic moment when, as a character is standing by a door, it doesn't 'whoosh' open until just the right moment before a character leaves a room despite that it probably should have beforehand.

But if you've spent too much time in those 'Nitpicker's Guides', your mind can get a bit sullied. Trek ain't perfect. Sometimes it's best to ignore it and enjoy...

Indeed. Study anything too closely and it tends to lose some of what made it enjoyable in the first place.

 

[MrJ]

Re: When

Spoiler

yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Spoiler

I could Nimoy's Spock doing something like that. Same Spock that, with a big goofy smile, grabbed Kirk when he found out he wasn't dead at the end of Amok Time, or had fun teasing his old friend by putting Savvik in charge of taking the Enterprise out of drydock in TWOK, or was putting the moves on Plasus daughter in Cloud Minders.

Spock's never been 100% emotionless. That's what the big deal about him going back to Vulcan between the series and TMP was: He was trying to purge himself of emotion and failed.

I knew someone was going to use the end of Amok Time emotional reaction to justify the Khan scream. The two are completely different. In Amok Time Spock was under the influence of Pon Farr, in STD he was not. Sure, by the end of Amok Time he was all better now. But I bet for a day or so after those events he didn't have his full level of control over his emotions. Also, he thought Kirk was dead, coupled with his post Pon Farr condition he let out a very brief emotional response, and immediately acted Vulcan and subdued after it. To use anything Spock said or did in Amok Time to justify his insanely out of character Khan Scream in STD is ridiculous. Why not bring up the time when he was under the Psi 2000 Virus in The Naked Time? Or when he was under the influence of the alien spores in This Side of Paradise? Because Amok Time, The Naked Time and This Side of Paradise were all special circumstances where Spock wasn't himself.

Spock letting Savvik command the ship out of Dry Dock was just good natured fun at his old friends expense, still done in a very Vulcan manner, but being quite Human. Which is a good bit of continuity from The Motion Picture, where Spock learned to embrace his Human half instead of purging it.

In the last two movies, or the entire Star Trek canon for that matter, there hasn't been any thing, or combination of things, that would cause Spock to so completely lose control and scream "Khan!" like he did in STD. Unless he was just getting over the effects of Pon Farr, infected by a virus that causes drunkenness, or been exposed to weird alien plant spores. Now, I've only seen Star Trek into Darkness once, and I don't plan on seeing it again anytime soon, but I don't remember any of those happening to Spock.

 

[BillJ]

Re: When

Spoiler

yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Spoiler

I knew someone was going to use the end of Amok Time emotional reaction to justify the Khan scream. The two are completely different. In Amok Time Spock was under the influence of Pon Farr, in STD he was not. Sure, by the end of Amok Time he was all better now. But I bet for a day or so after those events he didn't have his full level of control over his emotions. Also, he thought Kirk was dead, coupled with his post Pon Farr condition he let out a very brief emotional response, and immediately acted Vulcan and subdued after it. To use anything Spock said or did in Amok Time to justify his insanely out of character Khan Scream in STD is ridiculous. Why not bring up the time when he was under the Psi 2000 Virus in The Naked Time? Or when he was under the influence of the alien spores in This Side of Paradise? Because Amok Time, The Naked Time and This Side of Paradise were all special circumstances where Spock wasn't himself.

Spock letting Savvik command the ship out of Dry Dock was just good natured fun at his old friends expense, still done in a very Vulcan manner, but being quite Human. Which is a good bit of continuity from The Motion Picture, where Spock learned to embrace his Human half instead of purging it.

In the last two movies, or the entire Star Trek canon for that matter, there hasn't been any thing, or combination of things, that would cause Spock to so completely lose control and scream "Khan!" like he did in STD. Unless he was just getting over the effects of Pon Farr, infected by a virus that causes drunkenness, or been exposed to weird alien plant spores. Now, I've only seen Star Trek into Darkness once, and I don't plan on seeing it again anytime soon, but I don't remember any of those happening to Spock.

This gets tiresome...

I suppose Spock was acting in a totally emotionless, rational manner when he stole the Enterprise, kidnapped his former commanding officer and took off for the only planet in the known galaxy that has the death penalty attached to it?

Since you're going for comparisons, I'm sure that you'll point me to the episode where the madman exterminated the Vulcan people and Spock watched his mother fall to her death...

 

[MrJ]

Re: When

Spoiler

yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Spoiler

This gets tiresome...

I suppose Spock was acting in a totally emotionless, rational manner when he stole the Enterprise, kidnapped his former commanding officer and took off for the only planet in the known galaxy that has the death penalty attached to it?

Yes, he was. In that whole two parter everything Spock did he had a logical, rational reason for doing it. As we, and Kirk learned during the course of the episodes.

Since you're going for comparisons, I'm sure that you'll point me to the episode where the madman exterminated the Vulcan people and Spock watched his mother fall to her death...

I sure will, it was a movie called Star Trek, it came out in 2009. And after that happened he acted as we expected Spock to act. Outwardly cool, but with inside turmoil. It was a well acted moment by Quinto.

Spocks reaction to Kirks death in Star Trek Into Darkness was not as well acted. The death scene itself wasn't too bad, it was eye roll worthy for the supposedly "creative" homage to Wrath of Khan. But it wasn't awful. Spocks Khan scream was awful, so bad it made me laugh and completely took me out of the moment.

 

[BillJ]

Re: When

Spoiler

yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Spoiler

I sure will, it was a movie called Star Trek, it came out in 2009. And after that happened he acted as we expected Spock to act. Outwardly cool, but with inside turmoil. It was a well acted moment by Quinto.

He beat the piss out of Kirk.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Re: When

Spoiler

yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Spoiler

Trying to justify it as cinematic genius is simply inane.

Good thing no one was trying to call it "cinematic genius" then, huh? How does one even make the leap from us saying that there was ample set-up and emotional motivation for the scream to pretending we're calling it genius?

Because as they say: a rose, by any other name....

So, no, no one was calling it cinematic genius, but you're just going to pretend they did to misrepresent them.

Trying to justify the motivation for and execution of a line that comes from a character who shouldn't have that kind of reaction is a huge stretch.

Shouldn't he?

- He's half-human.
- Vulcans have emotions, they simply suppress them, with varying degrees of success.
- He's been shown to display emotions numerous times before in prior Trek episodes/movies.
- He could not complete the purging of emotions in the Kolinahr in TMP, and accepted later that he shouldn't try to, but should embrace his half-human/half-Vulcan nature as an emotional and logical being.
- He's been "emotionally compromised" by all the events I mentioned in my prior post.

Why, given all of that, shouldn't he become enraged? Vulcans are actually depicted as even more passionate and emotional than humans, which is why they had to take the drastic step of purging their emotions, since they felt it was literally destroying their society.

Furthermore, it was unrealistic. How many people, in the real world, scream the name of an opponent when they play their hand? It's unrealistic and dumb.

STOP THE PRESSES!!! This just in, movies aren't like real life.

You know that when people talk they stutter, they pause to think, they use verbal crutches, they screw up words? That rarely happens in movies thanks to the actors generally reading off a prepared script. You know why? Because if movies were entirely like real life they would suck ass.

The trope of the hero screaming the villain's name is as old as film itself (even when it was silent and they just mimed it and put the word on the screen). It's silly, but it's fun. Obviously, your mileage may vary, but it's hardly as if STiD is alone in this regard. It's not even alone among Trek movies.

But then again, these are the same writers who had the Vengeance pounding the crap out of the Enterprise on Earth's front porch, with no forethought to the fact that there might/should be an external defensive response.

No way, Earth being mostly defenseless except for the hero ship? Well, that's never happened before... except like in almost every Trek movie and TV series. But, as always, let's hold these writers to a much much higher standard than everything that's come before.

 

[BillJ]

Re: When

Spoiler

yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Spoiler

Yes, he was. In that whole two parter everything Spock did he had a logical, rational reason for doing it. As we, and Kirk learned during the course of the episodes.

It has the air of desperation. Because he is desperate to do something to help Pike. Emotion drove him to the decisions he made or are you saying that Spock would do this for every person who ever had a condition similar to Pike's?

 

[MrJ]

Re: When

Spoiler

yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Spoiler

I sure will, it was a movie called Star Trek, it came out in 2009. And after that happened he acted as we expected Spock to act. Outwardly cool, but with inside turmoil. It was a well acted moment by Quinto.

He beat the piss out of Kirk.

I was referring to Spocks reaction immediately after the fact not several scenes later. Hours, possibly days, after the fact. After Kirk egged him on and practically asked for it. It was similar to the scene when Kirk got Spock out of the spores influence in This Side of Paradise. That homage I didn't have a problem with, because it was better done there, than the Khan scream in STD.

 

[MrJ]

Re: When

Spoiler

yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Spoiler

Yes, he was. In that whole two parter everything Spock did he had a logical, rational reason for doing it. As we, and Kirk learned during the course of the episodes.

It has the air of desperation. Because he is desperate to do something to help Pike. Emotion drove him to the decisions he made or are you saying that Spock would do this for every person who ever had a condition similar to Pike's?

First, I never said that Spock was an emotionless robot incapable of feelings. He has them, he just doesn't show them.

And second, no he wouldn't do that for just anybody. Neither would he scream in rage over the death of somebody who he has only been friends with for a few months. Somebody who he is friends with only because they were meant to be friends, it is their destiny to be friends, they are fated to be together. They are friends because in an alternate timeline they, over a period of time, developed a friendship. Now because of some Star Wars sounding gobbledygook about destiny they are the best of buddies.

 

[BillJ]

Re: When

Spoiler

yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Spoiler

Now because of some Star Wars sounding gobbledygook about destiny they are the best of buddies.

They didn't seem like the best of buddies to me throughout most of the film, but it doesn't mean that when Kirk made his sacrifice that it didn't cause something deep down in Spock to realize that he would miss Kirk.

Like I've said before, I was leery of the Khan scream scene but once I actually saw it, I thought it worked quite well. YMMV.

 

[JWPlatt]

Re: When

Spoiler

yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Spoiler

...The trope of the hero screaming the villain's name is as old as film itself...

Stellaaa!

Okay, maybe she wasn't a villain.

 

[M'Sharak]

Re: When

Spoiler

yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Spoiler

...The trope of the hero screaming the villain's name is as old as film itself...

Stellaaa!

Okay, maybe she wasn't a villain.

Try these:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SayMyName
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigWordShout

 

[Opus]

Re: When

Spoiler

yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Spoiler

Rocky IV:

"Drago!!!!!"

 

[Anticitizen]

Re: When

Spoiler

yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Spoiler

I can't believe nobody has mentioned this, but wasn't Spock yelling the wrong name? Kirk's death ultimately came about as a result of Admiral Marcus' mechanizations, of which Khan was really just another unwilling victim - and Spock knows this. Sure, Khan is pretty villainous, but he's NOT the one pulling the strings that led to Kirk's death.

Shouldn't he have been yelling Admiral Marcus!!!!!!!?

...but then you don't get the TWOK reference. So there you have it, it's a lame callback to TWOK, and nothing more.

 

[M'Sharak]

Re: When

Spoiler

yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Spoiler

I can't believe nobody has mentioned this, but wasn't Spock yelling the wrong name? Kirk's death ultimately came about as a result of Admiral Marcus' mechanizations, of which Khan was really just another unwilling victim - and Spock knows this. Sure, Khan is pretty villainous, but he's NOT the one pulling the strings that led to Kirk's death.

Shouldn't he have been yelling Admiral Marcus!!!!!!!?

In fact, that question's been raised quite a few times already, in several threads. It always seems to work out that the name he was shouting was the correct one, after all.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: When

Spoiler

yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Spoiler

I can't believe nobody has mentioned this, but wasn't Spock yelling the wrong name? Kirk's death ultimately came about as a result of Admiral Marcus' mechanizations, of which Khan was really just another unwilling victim - and Spock knows this. Sure, Khan is pretty villainous, but he's NOT the one pulling the strings that led to Kirk's death.

Shouldn't he have been yelling Admiral Marcus!!!!!!!?

...but then you don't get the TWOK reference. So there you have it, it's a lame callback to TWOK, and nothing more.

Marcus severely damaged the Enterprise, but it was Khan's subsequent attack after beaming up the missiles and beaming Scotty, Kirk and Carol into the brig which damaged the warp core and sent the ship falling to Earth. If not for him, Kirk wouldn't have had to die.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: When

Spoiler

yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Spoiler

I could Nimoy's Spock doing something like that. Same Spock that, with a big goofy smile, grabbed Kirk when he found out he wasn't dead at the end of Amok Time, or had fun teasing his old friend by putting Savvik in charge of taking the Enterprise out of drydock in TWOK, or was putting the moves on Plasus daughter in Cloud Minders.

Spock's never been 100% emotionless. That's what the big deal about him going back to Vulcan between the series and TMP was: He was trying to purge himself of emotion and failed.

I knew someone was going to use the end of Amok Time emotional reaction to justify the Khan scream. The two are completely different. In Amok Time Spock was under the influence of Pon Farr, in STD he was not. Sure, by the end of Amok Time he was all better now. But I bet for a day or so after those events he didn't have his full level of control over his emotions. Also, he thought Kirk was dead, coupled with his post Pon Farr condition he let out a very brief emotional response, and immediately acted Vulcan and subdued after it. To use anything Spock said or did in Amok Time to justify his insanely out of character Khan Scream in STD is ridiculous. Why not bring up the time when he was under the Psi 2000 Virus in The Naked Time? Or when he was under the influence of the alien spores in This Side of Paradise? Because Amok Time, The Naked Time and This Side of Paradise were all special circumstances where Spock wasn't himself.

Spock letting Savvik command the ship out of Dry Dock was just good natured fun at his old friends expense, still done in a very Vulcan manner, but being quite Human. Which is a good bit of continuity from The Motion Picture, where Spock learned to embrace his Human half instead of purging it.

In the last two movies, or the entire Star Trek canon for that matter, there hasn't been any thing, or combination of things, that would cause Spock to so completely lose control and scream "Khan!" like he did in STD. Unless he was just getting over the effects of Pon Farr, infected by a virus that causes drunkenness, or been exposed to weird alien plant spores. Now, I've only seen Star Trek into Darkness once, and I don't plan on seeing it again anytime soon, but I don't remember any of those happening to Spock.

But that Spock was never pushed as far as this one. He never saw his mother and entire planet killed by a maniac, and then a year later lose his mentor and best friend to a ruthless killer. This is a younger, more volotile Spock who has been pushed too far.

 

[JWPlatt]

Re: When

Spoiler

yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Spoiler

...But that Spock was never pushed as far as this one. He never saw his mother and entire planet killed by a maniac, and then a year later lose his mentor and best friend to a ruthless killer. This is a younger, more volotile Spock who has been pushed too far.

We've heard these rationalizations before, so I'll repeat what I've said before:

None of that matters. They did it the way they did it for the TWOK reference. If Shatner hadn't done it, Quinto wouldn't have done it. And the writers appeared to completely ignore the meme - the joke - it has become. I can't fathom they were ignorant of how much of a joke it has become, but that would make it intentional humor on their part. And I can't imagine that they would actually choose to inject humor at that point, so that just leaves stupidly embarrassing.

 

[SalvorHardin]

Re: When

Spoiler

yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Spoiler

And the writers appeared to completely ignore the meme - the joke - it has become. I can't fathom they were ignorant of how much of a joke it has become,.

I don't live in the US so I can't say but how much truth is there in this? I'm having a hard time believing that in 2013 the Khan scream is so notorious among the general public.