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When [Spoiler] yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler]?

Re: When
yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler
And the writers appeared to completely ignore the meme - the joke - it has become. I can't fathom they were ignorant of how much of a joke it has become,.

I don't live in the US so I can't say but how much truth is there in this? I'm having a hard time believing that in 2013 the Khan scream is so notorious among the general public.

It really, really isn't anymore. I'd say there is a good portion of ticket-buyers who had never seen The Wrath of Khan nor the associated jokes. It was, after all, thirty-two years between the release of the two films.
 
Re: When
yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler
Shatner's Khan is like Arnold's I'll be back. Everyone expects it, but at the same time rolls their eyes when they hear it again and again.

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlY7YnWvZBU[/yt]

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwiX7wOoo1U[/yt]
 
Re: When
yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler
...But that Spock was never pushed as far as this one. He never saw his mother and entire planet killed by a maniac, and then a year later lose his mentor and best friend to a ruthless killer. This is a younger, more volotile Spock who has been pushed too far.

We've heard these rationalizations before, so I'll repeat what I've said before:

None of that matters. They did it the way they did it for the TWOK reference. If Shatner hadn't done it, Quinto wouldn't have done it. And the writers appeared to completely ignore the meme - the joke - it has become. I can't fathom they were ignorant of how much of a joke it has become, but that would make it intentional humor on their part. And I can't imagine that they would actually choose to inject humor at that point, so that just leaves stupidly embarrassing.

Wrong.

First, the fact that it mirrors TWOK does not preclude OTHER motivations for having it as well--none of which require humour, intentional or otherwise.

Second, the fact that the moment has been preceded by a series of pivotal events in the character's development that culminate in the scream (more effectively than in the original in terms of motivation for the scream itself) demonstrates that it wasn't just improvised without thought at the last second.

Third, the fact that you did not find it effectively executed (which is perfectly fine--matter of opinion and all that), does not make your disaffection a universal truth. I found it neither embarrassing nor funny and two packed screenings didn't find it funny enough to laugh (can't speak to embarrassing as I failed to conduct a survey of this critical issue).

It is fair to argue the scream was not well executed. I disagree but that is a matter of opinion. It is fair to question the inclusion of the scream as a necessary moment in the story. Again, a matter of opinion. It is not fair to argue the scream lacked motivation or context beyond the desire to insert a "callback" to TWOK. The "rationalizations" of which you are so dismissive are actually integral story and character elements in the two films and provide all the necessary in-story motivation for the scream, regardless of how one views its execution or inclusion. Clearly it is a callback to TWOK, but that is NOT ALL that it is.
 
Re: When
yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler
...But that Spock was never pushed as far as this one. He never saw his mother and entire planet killed by a maniac, and then a year later lose his mentor and best friend to a ruthless killer. This is a younger, more volotile Spock who has been pushed too far.

We've heard these rationalizations before, so I'll repeat what I've said before:

None of that matters. They did it the way they did it for the TWOK reference. If Shatner hadn't done it, Quinto wouldn't have done it. And the writers appeared to completely ignore the meme - the joke - it has become. I can't fathom they were ignorant of how much of a joke it has become, but that would make it intentional humor on their part. And I can't imagine that they would actually choose to inject humor at that point, so that just leaves stupidly embarrassing.
Was it a shit line best left out? Yes. But Spock, having broken down and screaming in fury IS in character. In fact, he did it twice before - as a child when a bully called Amanda "a human whore", and grown up, when Kirk similarly insulted his mother. This time, he screamed the name of the guy responsible because he wasn't currently in punching distance.
 
Re: When
yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler
It was bit cheesy, a bit like "Today is a good day to die" in FC.
 
Re: When
yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler
It really, really isn't anymore. I'd say there is a good portion of ticket-buyers who had never seen The Wrath of Khan nor the associated jokes. It was, after all, thirty-two years between the release of the two films.

Laughable. The age of the film and whether people have seen it is irrelevant. Like "Rosebud." I knew about that before I ever saw Citizen Kane and it was at least 50 years old by the time I took the time to watch it. Kahn is in the national psyche now more than ever - since well before STID. Everyone knows about Star Trek (except Stuart Baird). Most people know about Kahn and Kirk's Tarzan yell. Big Bang Theory, one of the most popular shows on TV with 18 to 23 million viewers weekly, uses the meme. Wheeeaaaatoooonnnn!!! It's frequently referenced by mainstream media and humorists. All the time.

Edit: I just found Wil Wheaton's blog about how he loved the film:
https://wilwheaton.net/2013/06/my-review-of-star-trek-into-darkness/

You all have probably seen the blog because he posted it June 18, but it's new to me. I liked the movie too, except for little bits here and there and especially the Kahn yell, and the Blu-ray debacle. But in the only two responses to Wil's blog that talk about Spock's Kahn yell, neither person liked it: one male, one female.
Michelle J D said:
I had the EXACT same reaction. I was totally in the movie and in the moment until that one line. I was able to ignore other logistical and canonical glitches and just enjoy the movie until that moment. Totally threw me out of the suspension of disbelief. I facepalmed in the theater.
 
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Re: When
yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler
Laughable. The age of the film and whether people have seen it is irrelevant. Like "Rosebud." I knew about that before I ever saw Citizen Kane and it was at least 50 years old by the time I took the time to watch it. Kahn is in the national psyche now more than ever - since well before STID. Everyone knows about Star Trek (except Stuart Baird). Most people know about Kahn and Kirk's Tarzan yell. Big Bang Theory, one of the most popular shows on TV with 18 to 23 million viewers weekly, uses the meme. Wheeeaaaatoooonnnn!!! It's frequently referenced by mainstream media and humorists. All the time.

Hmmm...

Eighteen to twenty-three million viewers a week does sound impressive, except you're in a nation of three-hundred and thirty million people. So, somewhere close to a tenth of the nation actually watch the show.

But even if you're right: judging by what people are saying outside of the Trekkie-corner of the universe, the movie was very, very well-received.

On Rotten Tomatoes, 91% of film-goers like the film out of 231,000+ who took the time to vote. Khan scream or not.

 
Re: When
yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler
But even if you're right: judging by what people are saying outside of the Trekkie-corner of the universe, the movie was very, very well-received.

On Rotten Tomatoes, 91% of film-goers like the film out of 231,000+ who took the time to vote. Khan scream or not.

Bill, Bill, Bill... You're tenacious on posts like Lindsay Lohan on rehab. But your logic still fails you. I liked the movie. It was well-received (but not the Blu-ray) by me, in fact, and I've said so in several posts now. Yet I did not like the Kahn yell. I, and others, can like 91% of the movie and still hate that line. Therein lies your logical fallacy.
 
Re: When
yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler
But even if you're right: judging by what people are saying outside of the Trekkie-corner of the universe, the movie was very, very well-received.

On Rotten Tomatoes, 91% of film-goers like the film out of 231,000+ who took the time to vote. Khan scream or not.

Bill, Bill, Bill... You're tenacious on posts like Lindsay Lohan on rehab. But your logic still fails you. I liked the movie. It was well-received (but not the Blu-ray) by me, in fact, and I've said so in several posts now. Yet I did not like the Kahn yell. I, and others, can like 91% of the movie and still hate that line. Therein lies your logical fallacy.

But your logic fails because not everyone hates the yell.
 
Re: When
yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler
But even if you're right: judging by what people are saying outside of the Trekkie-corner of the universe, the movie was very, very well-received.

On Rotten Tomatoes, 91% of film-goers like the film out of 231,000+ who took the time to vote. Khan scream or not.

Bill, Bill, Bill... You're tenacious on posts like Lindsay Lohan on rehab. But your logic still fails you. I liked the movie. It was well-received (but not the Blu-ray) by me, in fact, and I've said so in several posts now. Yet I did not like the Kahn yell. I, and others, can like 91% of the movie and still hate that line. Therein lies your logical fallacy.

But your logic fails because not everyone hates the yell.

Explain it to me.

I notice you didn't deny your logical problem. And now you're clinging to distraction like Gollum to the Ring. Let's assume my logic fails, which it doesn't. It doesn't make yours correct.
 
Re: When
yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler
Bill, Bill, Bill... You're tenacious on posts like Lindsay Lohan on rehab. But your logic still fails you. I liked the movie. It was well-received (but not the Blu-ray) by me, in fact, and I've said so in several posts now. Yet I did not like the Kahn yell. I, and others, can like 91% of the movie and still hate that line. Therein lies your logical fallacy.

But your logic fails because not everyone hates the yell.

Explain it to me.

I notice you didn't deny your logical problem. And now you're clinging to distraction like Gollum to the Ring. Let's assume my logic fails, which it doesn't. It doesn't make yours correct.
I've already explained why you're wrong above. You've chosen not to respond.
 
Re: When
yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler
Bill, Bill, Bill... You're tenacious on posts like Lindsay Lohan on rehab. But your logic still fails you. I liked the movie. It was well-received (but not the Blu-ray) by me, in fact, and I've said so in several posts now. Yet I did not like the Kahn yell. I, and others, can like 91% of the movie and still hate that line. Therein lies your logical fallacy.

But your logic fails because not everyone hates the yell.

Explain it to me.

I notice you didn't deny your logical problem. And now you're clinging to distraction like Gollum to the Ring. Let's assume my logic fails, which it doesn't. It doesn't make yours correct.

:rolleyes:

Not sure what exactly there is to explain. Not everyone hates the yell.
 
Re: When
yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler
I've already explained why you're wrong above. You've chosen not to respond.

BillJ's posts were more interesting to me and I saw no need for duplication since you can read my replies to others just as well. You made some objectively fair stipulations that needed no response, but your argument was circular to the conversation, by repeating the same rationalization about Spock's motivations, so I did not reengage.

Not sure what exactly there is to explain. Not everyone hates the yell.

That's what you say, and I agree. What's to explain is how you believe my logic was faulty.
 
Re: When
yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler
Your logic is flawed because you refuse to allow for any legitimate motivation for including the scream, despite having been presented with several by Locutus of Bored and myself, among others.
 
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Re: When
yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler
"I and others don't like it so it's a bad thing", is faulty logic. It doesn't stand to reason that because some people don't like something that it was a bad choice by the filmmakers to use it. You're also making an assumption that you're critique somehow carries more weight than others around here.

It really is funny, I haven't heard much outside these boards (and other Trek sites) about the Khan scream even though it supposedly a big deal and everyone hates it.
 
Re: When
yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler
"I and others don't like it so it's a bad thing", is faulty logic. It doesn't stand to reason that because some people don't like something that it was a bad choice by the filmmakers to use it. You're also making an assumption that you're critique somehow carries more weight than others around here.

Thank you. I and others don't like it and it is our opinion that the line was poorly considered in an otherwise entertaining film. I believe I'm as right as you believe you are. I believe more people found it funny (or facepalmed) than dramatic. But keep in mind that I hold science over faith and I am not aware of any scientific poll on the issue, so I wouldn't think I carry more weight until it is proven. I am, however, free to speak with self-assurance in the hopes of being persuasive.
 
Re: When
yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler
I've no problem with the scream being in there. My issue is that Quinto didn't throw himself into. It felt restrained. Even when Shatner did it, it was cheesy but he threw himself into it. It was the over top nature of it that sold with Shatner. Qunito just didn't sell it like Shatner did. Other than that, I've no issue with the line.
 
Re: When
yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler
I believe I'm as right as you believe you are.

Which is your right and no one has said otherwise.

I just believe Trekkies are far more wound up about it than are general audiences. Which stands to reason as we've all seen The Wrath of Khan so many times that we can't count.

Like I've said before, when I first found out they were going this route, I was very concerned. But after seeing it in action, I think it played out very well. Though I do agree with SeerSGB that Quinto could have thrown himself into it a bit more.
 
Re: When
yelled "[Spoiler!]" was that suposed to be [Spoiler

Bill, Bill, Bill... You're tenacious on posts like Lindsay Lohan on rehab. But your logic still fails you. I liked the movie. It was well-received (but not the Blu-ray) by me, in fact, and I've said so in several posts now. Yet I did not like the Kahn yell. I, and others, can like 91% of the movie and still hate that line. Therein lies your logical fallacy.

Bill, Bill, Bill... <snip>
...
Explain it to me.

I notice you didn't deny your logical problem. And now you're clinging to distraction like Gollum to the Ring. Let's assume my logic fails, which it doesn't. It doesn't make yours correct.


BillJ's posts were more interesting to me and I saw no need for duplication since you can read my replies to others just as well. You made some objectively fair stipulations that needed no response, but your argument was circular to the conversation, by repeating the same rationalization about Spock's motivations, so I did not reengage.


That's what you say, and I agree. What's to explain is how you believe my logic was faulty.


Thank you. I and others don't like it and it is our opinion that the line was poorly considered in an otherwise entertaining film. I believe I'm as right as you believe you are. I believe more people found it funny (or facepalmed) than dramatic. But keep in mind that I hold science over faith and I am not aware of any scientific poll on the issue, so I wouldn't think I carry more weight until it is proven. I am, however, free to speak with self-assurance in the hopes of being persuasive.

JWPlatt, you're welcome to argue your points or not to argue them, but if you intend to conduct a lecture on logic, then you should rent a hall, charge admission, whatever - but you should definitely do it elsewhere. Here, it's just coming across as a condescending and not-terribly-original sort of taunting.
 
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