When Spock beat up Kirk....

[RPJOB]

Kirk may have been McCoy's patient but it was under false pretenses. Spock could have McCoy arrested as well for bringing unauthorized personnel aboard.

The pod did tell Kirk to stay aboard. It's not Spock's fault that Kirk didn't listen or that Scotty didn't respond.

The second time Kirk boarded the ship he also was aboard illegally, having been put off by the commanding officer. Kirk and Scott should have been put in the brig and any questioning be done there.

 

[BillJ]

Kirk may have been McCoy's patient but it was under false pretenses. Spock could have McCoy arrested as well for bringing unauthorized personnel aboard.

The pod did tell Kirk to stay aboard. It's not Spock's fault that Kirk didn't listen or that Scotty didn't respond.

The second time Kirk boarded the ship he also was aboard illegally, having been put off by the commanding officer. Kirk and Scott should have been put in the brig and any questioning be done there.

1. Kirk came aboard while Pike was in command and was promoted to XO while Pike was in command. The promotion settles the stowaway issue. It was Pike's play, once he decided not to press charges the first officer doesn't get a crack at it.

2. Who exactly was suppose to come get Kirk? There were exactly two people at the outpost with one busted ass shuttle.

3. In his log, Kirk brought up a regulation about mistreatment of prisoners aboard a starship.

4. I don't think a Captain can throw a member of his crew overboard without due process. Spock acted as judge and jury, completely ignoring protocol. Tough to say Kirk's presence was illegal, when he received no due process to begin with.

Spock was going to wussy out and run to the Laurentian system and was pissed Kirk called him out on it. The scene reminded me of The Doomsday Machine when he was going to run to contact Starfleet while the planet killer munched on the Rigel colonies.

 

[F. King Daniel]

My fanboy excuse is that there is a Starfleet regulation which allows a Starship captain to drop off prisoners/criminals at the nearest Starfleet station. And so that's what he did -- technically speaking. i'm sure they have added more specific protocols since that incident.

That's what it says in Peter David's Star Trek New Frontier: Into the Void, published way back in 1997:

"Ship captains are historically not especially generous when it comes to stowaways, Si Cwan. In extreme cases, the captain would be authorized to punt you out of the ship in an escape pod with a homing beacon and no further obligation to see to your welfare. And since the captain is the one who defines what constitutes 'extreme,' he'd have a lot of latitude."

And that's exactly what Spock did.

Except Kirk was the first officer. Would it be acceptable for Picard to stuff Riker into an escape pod and toss him overboard over a disagreement?

This was very different. Kirk snuck aboard under false pretenses, Spock disliked Kirk, had zero respect for him and Kirk's first act back on the ship after being made first officer was to turn mutinous on Spock.

 

[BillJ]

That's what it says in Peter David's Star Trek New Frontier: Into the Void, published way back in 1997:

And that's exactly what Spock did.

Except Kirk was the first officer. Would it be acceptable for Picard to stuff Riker into an escape pod and toss him overboard over a disagreement?

This was very different. Kirk snuck aboard under false pretenses, Spock disliked Kirk, had zero respect for him and Kirk's first act back on the ship after being made first officer was to turn mutinous on Spock.

Mutinous? Kirk's interpretation of Pike's orders were valid. Spock was going to allow another six to ten billion people die because he was unable to think outside the box. Just like The Doomsday Machine.

Spock wasn't even willing to consider the possibility of going after Nero. What would it have hurt to have people working on possible plans of attack while en route to the Laurentian system? He could have simply ordered Kirk to work on various plans of attack and if they thought they had one that would work then they could go after Nero.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Except Kirk was the first officer. Would it be acceptable for Picard to stuff Riker into an escape pod and toss him overboard over a disagreement?

This was very different. Kirk snuck aboard under false pretenses, Spock disliked Kirk, had zero respect for him and Kirk's first act back on the ship after being made first officer was to turn mutinous on Spock.

Mutinous? Kirk's interpretation of Pike's orders were valid. Spock was going to allow another six to ten billion people die because he was unable to think outside the box. Just like The Doomsday Machine.

Yes, but Pike was off the ship and Spock was captain. And when the captain wants one thing and the first officer is yelling (in front of everyone) "I will not allow us to go backwards instead of hunting Nero down!" ...that's mutiny.

Although, yes, Spock was making terrible decisions. As his elder self said, "Jim, I just lost my planet. Believe me, I am compromised."

 

[RPJOB]

- Spock, you are captain now, you have to make-
- I am aware of my responsibilities,

Kirk acknowledged that Spock was captain. By his action to take command he committed mutiny. Maybe Kirk will be willing to have every officer and crewman on his ship question his commands and refuse to follow his orders but Spock is under no obligation to do so.

 

[horatio83]

This was very different. Kirk snuck aboard under false pretenses, Spock disliked Kirk, had zero respect for him and Kirk's first act back on the ship after being made first officer was to turn mutinous on Spock.

Mutinous? Kirk's interpretation of Pike's orders were valid. Spock was going to allow another six to ten billion people die because he was unable to think outside the box. Just like The Doomsday Machine.

Yes, but Pike was off the ship and Spock was captain. And when the captain wants one thing and the first officer is yelling (in front of everyone) "I will not allow us to go backwards instead of hunting Nero down!" ...that's mutiny.

Although, yes, Spock was making terrible decisions. As his elder self said, "Jim, I just lost my planet. Believe me, I am compromised."

Kirk did neither ignore a direct order which would be insubordination nor did he convince other crewmembers to relieve Spock of command which would be mutiny.
He simply argued with Spock. Perhaps not in the most polite fashion but the issue they are talking about is hardly something that warrants wasting time with superfluous courtesies. And, as Bill has pointed out, Kirk was simply right.

Hard to imagine a seasoned officer like Pike responding via any punishment to such behaviour. If you are in a position of authority and hysterically overreact to what might seem like a challenge to your authority you just undermine it yourself.

Not to mention that throwing anybody off the ship and into the ice, even the vilest criminal, is a crime.

 

[F. King Daniel]

It's not a crime because he was supposed to be rescued by Starfleeters from the nearby outpost (well.... as soon as Scotty got around to checking his messages) I doubt ice monsters would be much of a match for a charged phaser rifle or two.

And besides, you're losing sight of the obvious - Spock was emotionally compromised. Not of sound mind. He'd just seen his mother killed and his entire world destroyed. So comparisons to Pike are meaningess unless someone's up in his face and challenging his authority minutes after Earth was obliterated.

 

[horatio83]

So what? Suppose I discover that my partner cheats me and dumb her in Siberia. Luckily she does not freeze to death but reaches a nearby town. Obviously I would be "emotionally compromised" but this would not excuse my crime.

Sure, Spock made sure that there is an outpost nearby but Scotty was not informed about Kirk's landing. Dumping somebody in a harsh climate with dangerous lifeforms nearby is wrong. If Kirk had died Spock would have ended up with manslaughter charges and certainly been dismissed from service.

 

[sonak]

It's not a crime because he was supposed to be rescued by Starfleeters from the nearby outpost (well.... as soon as Scotty got around to checking his messages) I doubt ice monsters would be much of a match for a charged phaser rifle or two.

And besides, you're losing sight of the obvious - Spock was emotionally compromised. Not of sound mind. He'd just seen his mother killed and his entire world destroyed. So comparisons to Pike are meaningess unless someone's up in his face and challenging his authority minutes after Earth was obliterated.

1. If he was "compromised" then he should have resigned command immediately.

2. He left Kirk unarmed in a pod on a dangerous and unfamiliar planet. Even Kirk regards it as an unjust punishment, a point that is subsequently dropped.

 

[Nerys Myk]

So what? Suppose I discover that my partner cheats me and dumb her in Siberia. Luckily she does not freeze to death but reaches a nearby town. Obviously I would be "emotionally compromised" but this would not excuse my crime.

Sure, Spock made sure that there is an outpost nearby but Scotty was not informed about Kirk's landing. Dumping somebody in a harsh climate with dangerous lifeforms nearby is wrong. If Kirk had died Spock would have ended up with manslaughter charges and certainly been dismissed from service.

Like the time he created false orders, kidnapped a Starfleet officer and hijacked a Starship? Or the two times he physically assulted his commanding officer? One of which involved fermenting a mutiny and abandoning the ship. Yet for some reason he was let go with a slap on the wrist. Spock's one lucky pointed eared bastard, no matter what universe he's in.

 

[F. King Daniel]

1. If he was "compromised" then he should have resigned command immediately.

2. He left Kirk unarmed in a pod on a dangerous and unfamiliar planet. Even Kirk regards it as an unjust punishment, a point that is subsequently dropped.

1. Yes, but he didn't realize he was. That's why Kirk had to relieve him at the urging of Spock's older, wiser self.

2. Yes it was going a bit too far. But I doubt that Kirk's the type to insist, considering how things turned out, that they throw the book at Spock.

 

[FarStrider]

Points that make most of these arguments moot:

1. It is canon that the Captain of a Starship has the put personnel off the ship whom he deems is a danger to the ship at his discretion. . . see Gary Mitchell, see Marla McGivers. And it doesn't matter how psychologically damaging or physically dangerous the planet is: Delta Vega--unmanned, visited once every 20 years, Ceti Alpha V--barely Class M. . .

2. Kirk drew the security officer's phaser, he moved beyond insubordination (arguing with the captain) to an active danger not only to personnel, but a danger to what the Captain of the ship thought was the best plan to deal with the Romulan threat. Again, it has been show in canon that it is up to the discretion of the Captain what to do with people who are dangers to his ship. As Captain, Spock was well within his rights to put Kirk off the ship. It is an emergency situation, and he really didn't have time to deal with Kirk's tantrum; it's logical to put him off at the nearby Starfleet outpost and let someone else deal with the problem, while he is dealing with bigger issues.

3. Delta Vega Mark II has a manned Starfleet outpost on it. It wasn't unknown or dangerous if Kirk had done as he was told, and stayed with the pod. Eventually Scotty or Keenser would have heard the signal and picked Kirk up. . .Kirk's own actions put him in danger, not Spock.

You don't have to like it, but it IS in line with Star Trek stories from the past. . .

~FS

 

[Set Harth]

It wasn't unknown or dangerous if Kirk had done as he was told, and stayed with the pod.

Unless one of those monsters found the pod before Scotty of the Dead got around to doing anything about it...

 

[Jeyl]

4. I don't think a Captain can throw a member of his crew overboard without due process.

Yeah. A crew member who physically assaults two on-duty security officers on the bridge with the intent to take command with hostile force is not a big enough justification to send the said officer to the brig, especially after he finds his way back onto the ship.

 

[Sindatur]

Every time I read the thread title, I think of the title of the movie When Harry Met Sally

Definitely poor staging that no one said anything or reacted in any kind of way. Their all young and inexperienced, but, they do have training, so, there should have been some kind of reaction, even if not actually trying to break up the fight

 

[sonak]

4. I don't think a Captain can throw a member of his crew overboard without due process.

Yeah. A crew member who physically assaults two on-duty security officers on the bridge with the intent to take command with hostile force is not a big enough justification to send the said officer to the brig, especially after he finds his way back onto the ship.

to the brig yes. That's not what happened on the first occasion though.

 

[Timo]

Well, that's what was going to happen, until Kirk decided to assault the officers.

From Spock's point of view, the decision to maroon Kirk was not only emotionally satisfactory, it was also eminently logical. Kirk had broken through Starfleet security measures once already, by getting aboard the ship in the first place. Spock knew him for a resourceful and driven fellow who had the sympathies of a small part of his crew. So his real options here were sedating the prisoner (but with the CMO an ally to Kirk, that wasn't going to work too well) and marooning him...

Since Kirk managed to thwart even that attempt, Spock had only one way to up the ante: kill the bastard the next time around. Which he proceeded to try!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Greg Cox]

Well, that's what was going to happen, until Kirk decided to assault the officers.

From Spock's point of view, the decision to maroon Kirk was not only emotionally satisfactory, it was also eminently logical. Kirk had broken through Starfleet security measures once already, by getting aboard the ship in the first place. Spock knew him for a resourceful and driven fellow

. . . who had also hacked into Starfleet computers and cheated on the Kobiyashi Maru test.

Clearly, Kirk was a serial troublemaker whose ability to break regulations and defy the chain of command could not be underestimated! Heck, Spock was trying to get Kirk kicked out of Starfleet even before Kirk tricked his way onto the Enterprise . . . .