When Spock beat up Kirk....

[UFO]

Quite right and, including the bar fight, they did that sort of thing twice! But that’s the way we do things in today’s civil society. Nobody wants to get involved any more (Thank goodness ST was created in the 1960s). No wonder so many can identify with the characters in this movie. However it is encouraging that a number of people here still have an issue with such behaviour..

I don't know. I remember Scotty and Chekov getting into a barroom brawl with some Klingons. And Kirk enjoying the hell out of brawling with "Finnegan" on the Shore Leave planet--and getting into a fist fight every other episode.

Heck, in "This Side of Paradise" Kirk regards an increase in the number of random fist fights as a positive sign that people are getting back to normal.

The Final Frontier wasn't nearly as refined and civilized as people want to remember . . . ..

I think sonak (post 38) is right. It's the impression we are left with and the circumstances involved. The two "friendly fire" attacks on Kirk were both vicious affairs with no quarter given until interrupted by external agents. Maybe Hollywood of the 60's was kidding itself a little about good clean "rough-housing", but you also get the feeling there was still a certain degree of individual honour and restraint involved, unlike the single minded brutality we get in STXI, and of course other films these days. Kirk could have been killed twice by his own side.
　

You have to wonder if anyone actually watched TOS!

Well, I could ask the same when it comes to the idea that the kind of violence we saw in TOS was the same sort portrayed in STXI. And that’s without considering the different circumstances not to mention the more disciplined behaviour of the combatants in TOS when it came to inferior or defenceless opponents (at least usually from a Star Fleet POV). The movie makes the same mistake. It borrowed parts of various scenes but made no attempt to understand the original situations with unfortunate implications for the underlying meaning or message.

But if you feel the distinctions above are too subtle, you only have to ask yourself if the main characters in TOS would just stand around while a fellow crew member was being injured or killed, assuming they had a choice.

 

[RPJOB]

Didn't Kirk decide to strand his helmsman on a planet called Delta Vega in TOS? Spock's suggestion was to kill the guy.

Spock's original suggestion was to kill Mitchell. If Mitchell had shown up on the ship after being left on Delta Vega I think Kirk would have taken Spock's advice.

So, we have precedent that the captain can remove a crewman from the ship. The question is, how far does it go? Does he have to pose a threat or is being disruptive (in the eyes of the captain) enough?

(And what is it about planets called Delta Vegas that beg to have Enterprise crew members stranded on them?

 

[F. King Daniel]

But after this happens, it's fait accompli, and now Kirk is the criminal - and acts the part, proving Spock's actions correct. Something shady is going on, that much everybody can tell. But Kirk is the party that seems to be in the wrong, as per mounting evidence (much of it circular reasoning, but never mind as long as it looks good for the audience); this retroactively justifies Spock's previous action.

Timo Saloniemi

You don't throw prisoners off the ship, you put them in the brig. We all know why the writers did this, to get Kirk off the ship such that he can meet the old Spock, but this doesn't excuse the fairly strange behaviour of Spock. If Kirk had been eaten by the monster down there Spock would have definitely been court martialed and thrown out of Starfleet.

Nah, it would have been Kirk's fault. The nice computer lady did ask him to remain in his pod.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Quite right and, including the bar fight, they did that sort of thing twice! But that’s the way we do things in today’s civil society. Nobody wants to get involved any more (Thank goodness ST was created in the 1960s). No wonder so many can identify with the characters in this movie. However it is encouraging that a number of people here still have an issue with such behaviour..

I don't know. I remember Scotty and Chekov getting into a barroom brawl with some Klingons. And Kirk enjoying the hell out of brawling with "Finnegan" on the Shore Leave planet--and getting into a fist fight every other episode.

Heck, in "This Side of Paradise" Kirk regards an increase in the number of random fist fights as a positive sign that people are getting back to normal.

The Final Frontier wasn't nearly as refined and civilized as people want to remember . . . ..

I think sonak (post 38) is right. It's the impression we are left with and the circumstances involved. The two "friendly fire" attacks on Kirk were both vicious affairs with no quarter given until interrupted by external agents. Maybe Hollywood of the 60's was kidding itself a little about good clean "rough-housing", but you also get the feeling there was still a certain degree of individual honour and restraint involved, unlike the single minded brutality we get in STXI, and of course other films these days. Kirk could have been killed twice by his own side.
　

You have to wonder if anyone actually watched TOS!

Well, I could ask the same when it comes to the idea that the kind of violence we saw in TOS was the same sort portrayed in STXI. And that’s without considering the different circumstances not to mention the more disciplined behaviour of the combatants in TOS when it came to inferior or defenceless opponents (at least usually from a Star Fleet POV). The movie makes the same mistake. It borrowed parts of various scenes but made no attempt to understand the original situations with unfortunate implications for the underlying meaning or message.

But if you feel the distinctions above are too subtle, you only have to ask yourself if the main characters in TOS would just stand around while a fellow crew member was being injured or killed, assuming they had a choice.

The violence we see in TOS is constrained by the rules of TV in the 60s not the discipline or morality of the characters. Blood and injury were limited to a trickle by the mouth or a slash. Similarly the reactions of the crew will be formed by the needs of the story. Interference will happen if needed to achieve the scenes goals.

 

[horatio83]

The "TOS was violent and undisciplined" card does not really work as violence and lack of discipline are not the main issue. Note that neither the bar brawl with Cupcake nor violence in general are the main issues of the discussion. Starfleet officers idly standing by while a colleague is about to kill one of them after this very colleague has already marooned him and thus seriously endangered his life is.

 

[Franklin]

The "TOS was violent and undisciplined" card does not really work as violence and lack of discipline are not the main issue. Note that neither the bar brawl with Cupcake nor violence in general are the main issues of the discussion. Starfleet officers idly standing by while a colleague is about to kill one of them after this very colleague has already marooned him and thus seriously endangered his life is.

You can even back it up one more step. It's odd security would've let Kirk stand there and insult Spock that way for that long without intervening before Spock became violent.

But let's face it, it's all about the drama and plot, anyway. In the "real" world, once security captured Kirk and Scotty, they should've taken them directly to the brig and not to the bridge. Of course if they did that, there goes the setting for that pivotal scene.

 

[BillJ]

But let's face it, it's all about the drama and plot, anyway. In the "real" world, once security captured Kirk and Scotty, they should've taken them directly to the brig and not to the bridge. Of course if they did that, there goes the setting for that pivotal scene.

Well, Spock probably had a burning desire to know how Kirk got back aboard the Enterprise undetected. I assume he ordered him brought to the bridge off-screen.

Of all the characters, Spock is the one that is coming off totally different from his TOS counterpart. Which is okay as long as they have the courage to explore what the differences actually are. This Spock has lost his mother, his homeworld and met another version of himself (who is at least partially responsible for everything that happened) all in a very short span of time. It's bound to bring about emotional havoc.

 

[Franklin]

Well, Spock probably had a burning desire to know how Kirk got back aboard the Enterprise undetected. I assume he ordered him brought to the bridge off-screen.

Of all the characters, Spock is the one that is coming off totally different from his TOS counterpart. Which is okay as long as they have the courage to explore what the differences actually are. This Spock has lost his mother, his homeworld and met another version of himself (who is at least partially responsible for everything that happened) all in a very short span of time. It's bound to bring about emotional havoc.

Yeah, more than likely, Spock ordered Kirk to be brought to the bridge and it was just not something we needed to see. The "bringing 'em to the bridge" thing is old hat in Trek, anyway. Everyone ends up there.

You're right, Spock certainly had the most life-changing moments to sort through. Unlike Spock Prime, though, he does seem to have a strong relationship with his father, which could be helpful.

In terms of Spock's dramatic character development goes, though, two things bothered me about Spock meeting Spock Prime (though I'm sure the writers couldn't resist having them meet, I've always wondered they let Spock Prime be so frank with Spock). First, they have him tell Spock his best destiny is tied to Jim Kirk and the great friendship they'll form. Second, he advises Spock to do what feels right every now and then. In other words, loosen up a little. Enjoy a "marshmelon" if you want to. Whoa.
Doesn't that information kind of spoil the character? Spock Prime's journey to that realization was all about what his character was in TOS. It was a great part of what made him interesting and drove his relationships with Kirk and McCoy. With the knowledge and advice he got from the 160+ year-old Spock (the wisdom of decades of experience given in a few sentences), will we see actually a more "mellow" Spock? Has his edge been taken off?

 

[horatio83]

Indeed, having his father (Sarek is basically the opposite of his previous version, he does not force Spock to be a pure Vulcan but encourages him to explore his human side) as well as his older self telling him what the right thing to do is eliminates all the personal credit that learning on your own implies. Same with Spock senior telling Kirk that he has to befriend Spock.
As much as I liked to see Nimoy, in my opinion the movie would have been better without him and all this fate stuff. No semi-reboot, no connections to what has come before, just a clean cut.

 

[BillJ]

No semi-reboot, no connections to what has come before, just a clean cut.

This has been my take pretty much from the moment that I found out time travel and Nimoy were involved.

 

[Franklin]

Indeed, having his father (Sarek is basically the opposite of his previous version, he does not force Spock to be a pure Vulcan but encourages him to explore his human side) as well as his older self telling him what the right thing to do is eliminates all the personal credit that learning on your own implies. Same with Spock senior telling Kirk that he has to befriend Spock.
As much as I liked to see Nimoy, in my opinion the movie would have been better without him and all this fate stuff. No semi-reboot, no connections to what has come before, just a clean cut.

The only thing Spock Prime didn't say to Spock was, "Oh, one more thing. Be nice to Dr. McCoy. He means well."

I don't know if they needed to entirely leave out Spock Prime. He could've been a little less gabby, though.

The scene with Spock Prime spilling the beans to Spock was completely unnecessary as written. If they wanted Spock and Spock Prime to meet, maybe it would've been better if they just met in passing much like the cut scene between Spock Prime and Sarek. No words said.

They walk right by each other in some sort of hanger. It's not too crowded. Both stop and each raises an eyebrow as if they've just seen something odd and familiar at the same time. Young Spock doesn't look back and starts walking, again. Spock Prime turns around. Maybe he looks like he wants to say something, but he thinks better of it. He just stands there and watches young Spock heading towards a transporter. He hears Spock tell the technician, "One to beam up to the Enterprise," and we watch his dematerialization over Spock Prime's shoulder. After the transport, Spock Prime turns and walks on, nodding his head in satisfaction. Cut to the bridge where Spock offers his services to Kirk as first officer. Doing it that way would also show that Spock arrived at the decision to rejoin the Enterprise on his own based on what he had gone through with Kirk, not because of any coaching by Spock Prime.

 

[Ovation]

Just a thought (and not one I especially find compelling, but as a devil's advocate argument):

Spock Prime has come through a rather severe emotional wringer. He's marooned in a timeline not his own, he's watched his homeworld die (granted, in another timeline, but close enough to the original for it to matter), he is even somewhat responsible (if not intentionally) for that destruction (unintended consequences are a bitch). He has a unique opportunity to offer some insights to a younger version of himself on how to avoid some pain and trauma as life goes on. In the state Spock Prime must be in at that time, is it that hard to imagine he might fall to the temptation of "spilling a few beans"? If Spock Prime has spent over half his life accepting and accommodating his human half (TMP is still in his "youth"), then is it surprising that his "humanity" has, in his advanced years, become so influential in his decision-making?

Just something to consider.

 

[Set Harth]

Indeed, having his father (Sarek is basically the opposite of his previous version, he does not force Spock to be a pure Vulcan but encourages him to explore his human side) as well as his older self telling him what the right thing to do is eliminates all the personal credit that learning on your own implies. Same with Spock senior telling Kirk that he has to befriend Spock.
As much as I liked to see Nimoy, in my opinion the movie would have been better without him and all this fate stuff. No semi-reboot, no connections to what has come before, just a clean cut.

The only thing Spock Prime didn't say to Spock was, "Oh, one more thing. Be nice to Dr. McCoy. He means well."

I don't know if they needed to entirely leave out Spock Prime. He could've been a little less gabby, though.

The scene with Spock Prime spilling the beans to Spock was completely unnecessary as written. If they wanted Spock and Spock Prime to meet, maybe it would've been better if they just met in passing much like the cut scene between Spock Prime and Sarek. No words said.

The dialogue was necessary to explain that the whole paradox thing was bullcrap.

 

[zephramc]

Um, what? In what "real-world" military do officers assault each other? And WHY would anyone on that bridge think Kirk had anything to do with the death of spock's mother? Where did you get that from?

I've watched two petty officers (noncoms; one an E5; the other an E4) get into it. The fight was broken up within a few seconds after the shoving match started (I think someone would have thrown a punch if it hadn't) and both of them were talking to the Senior Chief not long after, but fights do happen. I have no doubt that commissioned officers throw down every once in awhile too.

I too don't understand how any of the others would think Kirk had anything to do with Amanda's death.

Petty officers fighting somewhere is far removed from high-ranking officers doing it on the bridge. Low-ranking POs are often very young adults. High ranking officers are not.

Commissioned officers (O-1s and O-2s anyways) are usually pretty young as well (mid to late 20s). I agree, though, it would be odd to see older and/or higher ranking officers (O-4 or higher) or noncoms (E-7 - E-9) duking it out... well, you might see that in the USMC .

 

[Morpheus 02]

But after this happens, it's fait accompli, and now Kirk is the criminal - and acts the part, proving Spock's actions correct. Something shady is going on, that much everybody can tell. But Kirk is the party that seems to be in the wrong, as per mounting evidence (much of it circular reasoning, but never mind as long as it looks good for the audience); this retroactively justifies Spock's previous action.

Timo Saloniemi

You don't throw prisoners off the ship, you put them in the brig. We all know why the writers did this, to get Kirk off the ship such that he can meet the old Spock, but this doesn't excuse the fairly strange behaviour of Spock. If Kirk had been eaten by the monster down there Spock would have definitely been court martialed and thrown out of Starfleet.

Nah, it would have been Kirk's fault. The nice computer lady did ask him to remain in his pod.

My fanboy excuse is that there is a Starfleet regulation which allows a Starship captain to drop off prisoners/criminals at the nearest Starfleet station. And so that's what he did -- technically speaking. i'm sure they have added more specific protocols since that incident.

 

[UFO]

The violence we see in TOS is constrained by the rules of TV in the 60s not the discipline or morality of the characters. Blood and injury were limited to a trickle by the mouth or a slash.

Yes, that's all part of why I am glad it was created in the 60's, but the behaviour of the characters backed such restraint up. For example a Western might be under the same constraints but you could still tell when characters were behaving poorly or dishonourably. Certainly TOS is a product of its times, but it seemed to choose to show the best of those times.

Similarly the reactions of the crew will be formed by the needs of the story. Interference will happen if needed to achieve the scenes goals.

Certainly, but if they didn't "interfere" there would have been a good reason. We would not have been left to conclude the characters were morally lacking or that the organisation that "trained" them couldn't care less.

 

[F. King Daniel]

My fanboy excuse is that there is a Starfleet regulation which allows a Starship captain to drop off prisoners/criminals at the nearest Starfleet station. And so that's what he did -- technically speaking. i'm sure they have added more specific protocols since that incident.

That's what it says in Peter David's Star Trek New Frontier: Into the Void, published way back in 1997:

"Ship captains are historically not especially generous when it comes to stowaways, Si Cwan. In extreme cases, the captain would be authorized to punt you out of the ship in an escape pod with a homing beacon and no further obligation to see to your welfare. And since the captain is the one who defines what constitutes 'extreme,' he'd have a lot of latitude."

And that's exactly what Spock did.

 

[BillJ]

My fanboy excuse is that there is a Starfleet regulation which allows a Starship captain to drop off prisoners/criminals at the nearest Starfleet station. And so that's what he did -- technically speaking. i'm sure they have added more specific protocols since that incident.

That's what it says in Peter David's Star Trek New Frontier: Into the Void, published way back in 1997:

"Ship captains are historically not especially generous when it comes to stowaways, Si Cwan. In extreme cases, the captain would be authorized to punt you out of the ship in an escape pod with a homing beacon and no further obligation to see to your welfare. And since the captain is the one who defines what constitutes 'extreme,' he'd have a lot of latitude."

And that's exactly what Spock did.

Except Kirk was the first officer. Would it be acceptable for Picard to stuff Riker into an escape pod and toss him overboard over a disagreement?

 

[horatio83]

My fanboy excuse is that there is a Starfleet regulation which allows a Starship captain to drop off prisoners/criminals at the nearest Starfleet station. And so that's what he did -- technically speaking. i'm sure they have added more specific protocols since that incident.

That's what it says in Peter David's Star Trek New Frontier: Into the Void, published way back in 1997:

"Ship captains are historically not especially generous when it comes to stowaways, Si Cwan. In extreme cases, the captain would be authorized to punt you out of the ship in an escape pod with a homing beacon and no further obligation to see to your welfare. And since the captain is the one who defines what constitutes 'extreme,' he'd have a lot of latitude."

And that's exactly what Spock did.

First, this guy might think that Starfleet does nasty things to stowaways but this seems more like something out of a romantic novel. Even we are civilized enough to not throw blind passengers overboard and Starfleet should be better than us and not worse.
Second, Kirk was not a stowaway, he was a cadet who was rightfully on the ship as McCoy's patient.

 

[sonak]

My fanboy excuse is that there is a Starfleet regulation which allows a Starship captain to drop off prisoners/criminals at the nearest Starfleet station. And so that's what he did -- technically speaking. i'm sure they have added more specific protocols since that incident.

That's what it says in Peter David's Star Trek New Frontier: Into the Void, published way back in 1997:

"Ship captains are historically not especially generous when it comes to stowaways, Si Cwan. In extreme cases, the captain would be authorized to punt you out of the ship in an escape pod with a homing beacon and no further obligation to see to your welfare. And since the captain is the one who defines what constitutes 'extreme,' he'd have a lot of latitude."

And that's exactly what Spock did.

1. that's not canon

2. it's extremely silly

3. Kirk wasn't a stowaway



Seriously, would it have been THAT hard to find another way to get nuKirk together with oldSpock? A way that didn't make the characters look bad?