When SHOULD Riker have left?

[Makarov]

Jellico's report might been outweighed by the 500 complaints about the four shift rotation causing significant personnel problems. Once all the department heads rose in rank they probably remembered that he pulled that on them.

I kind of take the Riker career thing at face value, he wanted to stay and provided invaluable help to the Enterprise which was present at many many key moments, so it was the right choice for him.

 

[Vger23]

Whenever he damn well pleases. It's his life and his career. Starfleet can cram it if he feels happy and fulfilled on the Enterprise.

Riker is one of those people who likes the idea of being in the big chair / getting the big promotion a lot better than the reality of it. And that's ok. That ambition was more important to him and his success as an officer than any other factor probably.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yeah, he should have gone. I wonder what would have happened if they gave him the command of DS9 and Frakes went on to headline that show? Be a shift in the dynamics of that show, especially if it's Ro and not Kira.

 

[shivkala]

At the end of season 4. In part 2 of BOBW they said the fleet would be returned to strength within a year and Riker would have his pick of ships to command. There could have been a mini arc over the course of season 4 in which Riker prepares for command and at the end he could have left to become Captain Riker.
It also leaves them enough time to introduce Thomas Riker to keep Frakes on the show.

In-universe he should have also left at that point.

I was going to say directly following, "The Best of Both Worlds," but you make a good case for an in-universe and out-of universe exit for William Riker at the end of season 4. Throw in a mid-season crisis when he discovers Thomas and feels wistful at who he used to be, with Picard and Troi reassuring him that he's still the same person, only slightly more mature (obviously moving "Second Chances" to Season 4, instead of Season 6).

Now, Thomas shouldn't have been made first officer, but Data getting a promotion would have been interesting, as well. Perhaps it's Riker's arc that prompts Troi to take the bridge officer's exam.

The best thing about keeping Jonathan Frakes on the show as Thomas is that he'd be readily available to play Will as well. "Redemption" would have been a great time to see him in command for the first time. They could have also brought him in for "The Pegasus" for some reason and we could have seen the internal debate Riker faced more dramatically as he and Thomas could have taken different sides. William, having been in command for a few years, could have taken the "We need to come forward with the truth" side and Thomas could have taken the "No, we owe it to Pressman to keep quiet" side.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

After "Best of Both Worlds" would be the most organic place for him to leave. He's literally a Captain, faced off against the Federations greatest threat, the fleet has lost 40 ships and thousands of lives and would be screaming out for talented new CO's, plus the E-D has a very suitable replacement already aboard (unless Riker opted to take Shelby with him and Data was promoted to First Officer, leading to a shuffle around of the crew).

 

[Angry Fanboy]

Whenever he damn well pleases. It's his life and his career. Starfleet can cram it if he feels happy and fulfilled on the Enterprise.

This is only a discussion about the career of a fictional character - it's really not something worth getting worked up over.

 

[Angry Fanboy]

After "Best of Both Worlds" would be the most organic place for him to leave. He's literally a Captain, faced off against the Federations greatest threat, the fleet has lost 40 ships and thousands of lives and would be screaming out for talented new CO's, plus the E-D has a very suitable replacement already aboard...

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

As I've said, I'd imagine Riker's stock was as high as it ever went immediately following BOTW - he'd stepped into the captaincy of the Enterprise during a truly dire situation and orchestrated Picard's rescue, ultimately saving Earth from the Borg.

Starfleet Command clearly rated him highly before the Borg attack, let alone after it and would probably have given him whatever ship he wanted (with one obvious exception).

As for Shelby I'm not sure whether she'd have stayed on the Enterprise if Riker left after BOTW - Starfleet appeared to have other plans for her following the loss of so many ships at Wolf 359.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

As I've said, I'd imagine Riker's stock was as high as it ever went immediately following BOTW - he'd stepped into the captaincy of the Enterprise during a truly dire situation and orchestrated Picard's rescue, ultimately saving Earth from the Borg.

Starfleet Command clearly rated him highly before the Borg attack, let alone after it and would probably have given him whatever ship he wanted (with one obvious exception).

I'd say he'd be a shoe in for the newest Nebula- or Galaxy-Class to come off the production line.

As for Shelby I'm not sure whether she'd have stayed on the Enterprise if Riker left after BOTW - Starfleet appeared to have other plans for her following the loss of so many ships at Wolf 359.

That always felt as a cop out to me, since the PTB weren't going to shake up the casting they had to make it look like she was off to something else important, but if given the choice between a post at Utopia Planitia overseeing new developments and construction or XO of the flagship I'd say it's safe to assume she'd opt for the latter.

 

[Angry Fanboy]

...they had to make it look like she was off to something else important, but if given the choice between a post at Utopia Planitia overseeing new developments and construction or XO of the flagship I'd say it's safe to assume she'd opt for the latter.

I never really understood why she'd have been put anywhere other than back at whatever Borg taskforce she was working on before her temporary assignment to the Enterprise.

Wasn't the whole point that Shelby was the standout officer in Hanson's Borg defence programme - which was why she was sent to the Enterprise as a 'Borg expert' when they were detected?

Surely after BOTW the wealth of new information she obtained, including first hand experience of fighting them and being aboard a Borg cube, would've meant she'd have been more valuable than ever at the Borg taskforce?

 

[XCV330]

By my count Riker was offered his own ship four times that we know of:

He was offered the Drake at the age of 29, but turned it down in favour of the first officer position on the Enterprise. He was offered the Aries a year later and turned down that ship too. Next was the Melbourne just before the Borg attack of 2366. Then the offer of the Titan rolled round fourteen years later in 2379.

Starfleet may well have offered him his own ship between 2366 and 2379 - maybe they were offering him ships regularly from the age of 29 with the Drake to 44 when he finally accepted the Titan. Or Starfleet may have taken the view 'we''ve offered him three ships and had three refusals, he can stay on the Enterprise for all we care...'

He was clearly a rising star within Starfleet, Picard described him as 'quite simply the finest officer he'd ever served with'. But his career stalled after a year or two on the Enterprise, he and everyone else around him knew that.

To my mind he was essentially a captain serving as a first officer from about 2366 onwards after the Borg attack, after which his stock was probably as high as it had ever been after his field promotion and the part he played in stopping the Borg.

Was he right to stay as long as he did? Curious to know what others think?

by the time of the Dominion War he had a duty to serve more fully. Since they didn't fully trust Picard any longer, maybe they kept Riker where he was as he could step in if Picard went full Borg, and knowing he had little ambition, it was a safe enough place to keep him. Picard was too useful to put to pasture, but not suitable to the requirements of the conflict. Riker was likewise talented but had numerous bad incidents plus guilt by association. After the dust settled they eventually gave him a command, and his career finally had the chocks pulled from the wheels.

 

[Discofan]

I was going to say directly following, "The Best of Both Worlds," but you make a good case for an in-universe and out-of universe exit for William Riker at the end of season 4. Throw in a mid-season crisis when he discovers Thomas and feels wistful at who he used to be, with Picard and Troi reassuring him that he's still the same person, only slightly more mature (obviously moving "Second Chances" to Season 4, instead of Season 6).

Now, Thomas shouldn't have been made first officer, but Data getting a promotion would have been interesting, as well. Perhaps it's Riker's arc that prompts Troi to take the bridge officer's exam.

The best thing about keeping Jonathan Frakes on the show as Thomas is that he'd be readily available to play Will as well. "Redemption" would have been a great time to see him in command for the first time. They could have also brought him in for "The Pegasus" for some reason and we could have seen the internal debate Riker faced more dramatically as he and Thomas could have taken different sides. William, having been in command for a few years, could have taken the "We need to come forward with the truth" side and Thomas could have taken the "No, we owe it to Pressman to keep quiet" side.

Or we could have watched Pressman getting crazy having to deal with two hostile Rikers, instead of one.

 

[Mage]

Unpopular opinion......

After the events of BOBW, Picard is the one who leaves, accepting the rank of admiral and sectorcommand. Enterprise is assigned to said sector, so we still have Picard in the show, with Riker in command of the Enterprise.

Or, Riker does leave the ship, but not the show. And setting up a show where we have two ships, interacting on occasion, with some episodes focused more on the Enterprise, some episodes focused more on Riker's ship.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

@Mage both seem like good options to me.

 

[somebuddyX]

Unpopular opinion......

After the events of BOBW, Picard is the one who leaves, accepting the rank of admiral and sectorcommand. Enterprise is assigned to said sector, so we still have Picard in the show, with Riker in command of the Enterprise.

Or, Riker does leave the ship, but not the show. And setting up a show where we have two ships, interacting on occasion, with some episodes focused more on the Enterprise, some episodes focused more on Riker's ship.

I had a similar idea a couple of years back, where Picard only guest starred in the 4th Season and Shelby became the new XO. Picard comes back at the start of Season 5 to lead the Anti-Romulan Task force.
When I was a kid I remember thinking it would have been cool if Riker, Geordi and Data had all left to go command the Excalibur and Sutherland full time.

 

[shivkala]

Unpopular opinion......

After the events of BOBW, Picard is the one who leaves, accepting the rank of admiral and sectorcommand. Enterprise is assigned to said sector, so we still have Picard in the show, with Riker in command of the Enterprise.

Or, Riker does leave the ship, but not the show. And setting up a show where we have two ships, interacting on occasion, with some episodes focused more on the Enterprise, some episodes focused more on Riker's ship.

Here's where the real world conflicts with the fictional one. In real life we know there's no way anyone involved with TNG would want Patrick Stewart to leave at a time when TNG was arguably at its most popular. Fans, certainly, would not have been happy to spend all summer anxiously awaiting the fate of Picard to see him shuffled off to a supporting role, akin to Admiral Ross in DS9. Granted, you could have Picard choose the Enterprise as his ship and have one of those (I'm in charge of larger scale missions, Riker, you're in charge of the day-to-day stuff). There could have been some minor conflict there as the two struggle with their respective roles. I just don't see that lasting the 4 seasons the show had left, though.

Dramatically, your idea is great, but practically, I just don't think it could have worked.

That being said, it seems odd to me that Starfleet didn't do more with Picard. You can claim that Troi helped him (in "Family" he says, "Counselor, your help has been invaluable during my recovery. I'm better... the injuries have healed..." and then tells her the nightmares are gone, granted the invasion might have been to blame, but we see them return in First Conact), but we know it would not be enough. "I, Borg" and First Contact (not to mention Picard) show he has not fully recovered.

I just don't see how Starfleet didn't order him to headquarters for an intense psychological work-up and de-briefing session. I'm not an expert, but from the little I could find, returning POWs in the US undergo a long process of being re-acclimated to society and their previous lives. On one hand, yes, Picard wasn't captured for long. But the assimilation process effectively brainwashed him (not the best way of describing it, but I'm struggling for a modern equivalent). How did Starfleet Security think it was a good idea to just let him resume his regular duties?

I think more realistically, Starfleet would have held Picard for years to undergo psychological examinations, for one. Starfleet Security would have had to been 100% sure that the assimilation process did not leave them open to any potential vulnerabilities. Again, First Contact shows us he still had some connection to the Borg and it's frankly amazing they didn't take advantage of that. Admiral Nechayev made it clear in "Descent" that Starfleet considered his decision to let Hugh go in "I, Borg" to be wrong. It's astounding they didn't consider it to be an after-effect of the assimilation and classified Picard as a possible security threat.

Then, whether Starfleet security itself or Section 31, someone would have been working the angle that Picard could be used as a weapon against the Borg. Certainly, he would object, but Starfleet hasn't shown themselves to be the type to put the needs of the one above the needs of the many.

Practically speaking, Picard should have been held at Starfleet for at least season 4. Maybe they promote him as a cover, maybe they're forthright that he's not going anywhere until he's been poked and prodded by every doctor, psychologist, and security official as needed to ensure (a) he's okay, (b) there are no lasting effects, and (c) he's not a danger to Starfleet and the Federation.

Riker, of course, would be promoted to captain of the Enterprise, seeing as how it would have an open captaincy and he acquitted himself well during the Borg encounter. I'm not sure about Shelby being his XO. I think her work on the Borg would have kept her from serving on a starship long-term (unless Starfleet saw fit to give her a ship of her own to help with that work).

Again, none of this would work in real life, as I do't see Patrick Stewart leaving the show or taking a diminished role post the season 3 cliff-hanger made the show so popular.

 

[Dukhat]

Well, he was right not to accept command of the Drake, because that ship was destroyed with all hands. He was also right not to accept command of the Melbourne, for the same reason.

Now, while the Aries is still around and kicking, Picard's description of it at the time as a "relatively insignificant ship in an obscure corner of the galaxy" probably wasn't the best way to sell the idea to him.

So the Titan was his most logical choice

 

[Vger23]

This is only a discussion about the career of a fictional character - it's really not something worth getting worked up over.

Don't misread me. I wasn't worked up. Just having fun with the topic!

 

[Mojochi]

Realistically Riker's at the top of Starfleet's list after BoBW, & all debate aside, there's an obligation to advance, given the state of things, if he has any loyalty to the organization at all. To not is just selfish imho. (Or a confidence issue)

When's it work for the show to have Riker leave? Maybe a few episodes after that. I don't hate the idea that Tom Riker could come in. Had Second Chances come earlier, it could work, to have Picard recruit him, after Cpt. Riker leaves

IMHO, when should an officer in Riker's position advance? When Picard spells it out for him. The Aries has the makeup of being Riker's StarGazer, is what Picard tells him. If command is the goal, THAT'S the move. Take the little old StarGazer, & stay there decades, until thing wrecks.

The Melbourne offer was everyone telling him to get out of the way, not just Shelby. "She's no Enterprise"? Go F### yourself dude! Are you waiting for Picard to die? He just got the thing 3 years ago. He spent 22 on the Stargazer. Good luck with that.

Maybe having Shelby be XO on the D was part of Hansen's Borg task force plan, & having Riker (Also a proven Borg expert) take his own ship was too. So you can spread the expertise around, & train more. A task force plan has to go into the field eventually.

But by the time they started trashing the Riker character, with Jellico relieving him, Pressman smearing him, & Veridian III miring him, it's a wonder they ever offered again. From about S4's First Contact on, he's just a total bum. lol

 

[Angry Fanboy]

So what made him stay? He clearly enjoyed working with and socialising with this group of people. Deanna Troi was almost unquestionably a factor.

He was comfortable, and I'd imagine there is also a certain comfort to serving with someone like Picard who is almost completely unflappable in any situation.

I think most observers appeared to agree that he was too comfortable there, that he was clearly more than capable of captaincy himself and was essentially wasted in the first officer role. He was soon being overtaken career-wise by up and coming officers like he was in 2363.

Riker indicates, particularly at the end of GEN that he wanted command of the Enterprise-D after Picard (or certainly command of an Enterprise) - possibly he was happy to ride out the clock as first officer until Picard moved on no matter how long that took?

 

[Mojochi]

Riker indicates, particularly at the end of GEN that he wanted command of the Enterprise-D after Picard (or certainly command of an Enterprise) - possibly he was happy to ride out the clock as first officer until Picard moved on no matter how long that took?

Which is just silly. Even by GEN, Picard had only commanded the D a 3rd as long as the Stargazer, & would command the E for an additional 13 years, in total, equaling that amount of time.

That's 6 more years after Riker finally left for the Titan, having been under Picard's command for 15 years, after his 1st captaincy offer. Meaning, if he were to have waited for Picard to vacate, he wouldn't have become a captain until he was 50 years old, foregoing the fact that maybe they don't want a 1st time captain for that ship anyhow. Picard wasn't one. If it was his plan, it's a really dumb & frankly arrogant gamble.

 

[JesterFace]

Maybe he should have left for his own command when he felt like he was ready for it, not when someone else wants him to go.
Perhaps after 'The Best of Both Worlds' he felt like he wasn't ready.