Lost's magic bubble eventually slipped out from around Jack and Locke. Granted, Jack made it to the final episode, but not past it. And Locke was dead for the last two seasons, spending the penultimate one being impersonated by the one true villain of the piece.
When did Trek become a 'family' show?
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Is the spoiler statute of limitations over on Lost?
In case it's not I'll spoiler tag it.
Trip's and Data's deaths were heroic but they didn't have impact because they felt contrived rather than earned.
In case it's not I'll spoiler tag it.
The character died, but this did not cause the actor to miss any episodes. And the episode after we learn it's not really him, he's right there in the other universe, so it never feels like he's really gone. That's the reason I included him on the list.
Trip's and Data's deaths were heroic but they didn't have impact because they felt contrived rather than earned.
This is all so very interesting. Makes so much sense.
So.... I could see, and support mind you, going for the formats that these lonnnnng running shows have. e.g., all the Law & Orders, and New Tricks has been going since 2003. L&O and NT use the long term system; not a big or systematic turnover but people do come and go. Some leads stay for years and years, some stay for years, some a year or so, some shorter. Only once in a great while do they have a 'surprise' exit or death, and for the show to continue being the same show nobody 'has' to stay forever. Some even leave and then come back at a later date.
Instead of looking at different series so much (which ARE nice/interesting btw) I can see how the 'Magic bubble of protection' could be in place to give stability but is loose enough over the long term, ten/fifteen/indeterminate number years, for stirring the pot or adding new flavors. (or some other cooking metaphor
) Dr. Who does these changes really dramatically which works for it, but these police, procedurals, forensics, etc. shows have a structure of casual turnover I can see as adaptable to television StarTrek.
I definitely prefer the, what is it called, stand alone... no, it is episodic StarTrek. I would not enjoy the 'to be continued' and 'last week on Star Trek' or season ending cliff hangers.
These lonnnnng running successful shows do actually have arcs but not arcs that consume entire seasons or blocks of episodes. They often 'last' for seasons but don't consume them. Which I feel is more useful for encouraging new viewers to join at any point while other viewers move into different age demands and move away. And return at later dates.
If viewers could be factored in as shifting, and primary or lead characters hang around long enough to be beloved but also with natural shifting, and ship upgrades be natural over the years? I could get to really like this kind of StarTrek television show.
Anyway, that's the direction your 'Magic Bubble' discussion got me to look at. And now I'm rather excited about a StarTrek format like this.
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Isn't the important thing that he made it to the episode?
This is all so very interesting. Makes so much sense.
So.... I could see, and support mind you, going for the formats that these lonnnnng running shows have. e.g., all the Law & Orders and New Tricks has been going since 2003. L&O and NT use the long term system; not a big or systematic turnover but people come and go. Some leads stay for years and years, some stay for years, some a year or so, some shorter. Only once in a great while do they have 'surprise' exit or death, and for the show to continue being the same show nobody 'has' to stay forever. Some even leave and come back at a later date.
I definitely prefer the, what is it called, stand alone... no, it is episodic StarTrek. I would not enjoy the 'to be continued' and 'last week on Star Trek' or season ending cliff hangers.
If viewers could be factored in as shifting, and main lead characters hang around long enough to be beloved but also with natural shifting, and ship upgrades be natural over the years? I could get to really like this kind of StarTrek television show.
I'm curious too about what a new Trek show will look like. I think they're definitely going to try to do something different.
LAO has the rotating cast type of format, which is more realistic, for its environment.
Hanging on to the old format did a lot of damage to Nemesis, because by then, it was played out.
I get the notion that alien/plot of the week lends itself to much to the magic bubble. There's a plot, an alien, a threat, it's solved, and then a new adventure next week.
Can it work again in a new series?
I think my problem is, (from my view) that it's affected my re-watch-ability of shows like TNG and Voyager. The first few viewings are good, but eventually it's dated out quick.
Strangely enough TOS doesn't have the same feel, although it's pretty much the same bubble
That was just about everyone's reaction. Fans don't even know why he sacrificed himself to begin with. According to the situation, he didn't have to at all.
Data's? It was a movie cliche, that isn't as effective anymore.
Remember how a teaser or trailer for an upcoming episode had the habit of announcing that a character "you've cared about will-not-survive !!!" ?
That amounts to a spoiler which defeats the impact in the first place. It can only work so many times before it becomes ineffective.
In today's shows, I've notice that hero characters can get killed for nothing. But it makes the ongoing story line that much more exciting because of that, IMO.
The stakes are higher and the environment is unpredictable--and that makes you watch.
Really, that would make a lot of sense, since real-life naval crews do have pretty frequent turnover as people are rotated in and out. By all rights, there should've been different characters coming and going throughout the run of the various series. Instead, we get the same crew sticking together for decades through the various movies.
Let's see... TOS's only real, permanent cast changes outside of the background personnel, not counting the major cast shifts between the pilots and the first season, were Rand's departure and Chekov's addition. TNG lost Yar and Crusher after the first season, then got Crusher back a year later, eventually lost Wesley, and added Ro on a recurring basis. DS9 added Worf and eventually swapped Jadzia for Ezri -- and had an ever-growing supporting cast, adding tons of characters but rarely losing any. VGR, the one show that could really justify keeping its cast indefinitely, lost Kes and gained Seven of Nine, but otherwise stayed stable. And ENT had zero main-cast changes over its entire run.
Hayes was a supporting character, a guest star who appeared in only five episodes. I'm speaking of main-cast regulars, the people who get billed in the opening titles.
Hayes was hardly a major character, we only see him in one season and only in five episodes and to add insult to injury only for a short time in each episode. The longest time we see him is in Harbinger where Reed and him are beating each other up. That doesn't qualify him as a major character.
Indeed.
And his role can also be perceived as significantly pivotal in the evolving of the prequel steps taken during that time which eventually becomes Star Trek and Starfleet/the Federation.
So not a main character, but to many, including some of the main characters, a Stand Out guest character that strongly impacts and moves the Big Picture direction Trek must go to get to Star Trek as we know it during his five episode run.
Definitely not a shabby role. In addition produced a surprisingly large fan base in that short number of episodes. Then, and continues today.
And his role can also be perceived as significantly pivotal in the evolving of the prequel steps taken during that time which eventually becomes Star Trek and Starfleet/the Federation.
So not a main character, but to many, including some of the main characters, a Stand Out guest character that strongly impacts and moves the Big Picture direction Trek must go to get to Star Trek as we know it during his five episode run.
Definitely not a shabby role. In addition produced a surprisingly large fan base in that short number of episodes. Then, and continues today.
How did they explain Ensign Cutler not returning in-universe? The actress died IRL and, of course, couldn't come back.
He was a character who was a Major.
IIRC, in universe she never left. We just didn't see her again.FormerLurke said:
They didn't. We know Cutler was still aboard in the third season there was a mention to her in Rajiin which I think aired shortly before Kellie Waymire died. But after that she's never mentioned again.
I never said Hayes's role was "shabby." I simply focused on main-title regulars. I didn't mention Kyle or Barclay or Nog either. It's not a value judgment.
They didn't explain it. We know she was still aboard during the Xindi mission, since there was a reference in "Rajiin" to Cutler breaking her arm off-camera. So presumably she was still there, just not seen. The books have established that she was aboard as late as "Demons"/"Terra Prime" (although Rosetta mistakenly calls her "Nurse Cutler"), and in my Rise of the Federation novels, she's the Endeavour's science officer under Captain T'Pol.
They didn't explain it. We know she was still aboard during the Xindi mission, since there was a reference in "Rajiin" to Cutler breaking her arm off-camera. So presumably she was still there, just not seen. The books have established that she was aboard as late as "Demons"/"Terra Prime" (although Rosetta mistakenly calls her "Nurse Cutler"), and in my Rise of the Federation novels, she's the Endeavour's science officer under Captain T'Pol.
I think the deal with bringing Major Hayes into this is just meant to be a joke. We're talking about major characters and his rank was major. Kind of how one might joke Kira Nerys stopped being a major character in season 7 of DS9, when she was promoted to Colonel.
^Except the term "major characters" was not used before Hayes was brought up. I was speaking of main-cast regulars. I did mention the "major cast shifts" between the TOS pilots, but I meant that the quantity of characters who got replaced was major/sizeable, rather than any individual character being "major."
NO! no no no!!! Nuh uh!! You absolutely FOR SURE didn't say that!!! nooooooooo
Was talking to self! <head slap>
Typing! This stuff gets VERY TRICKY sometimes. Ack!!!
Was saying to MYSELF, talking to 'myself', saying "Hey, you know, that role wasn't half bad, not shabby at all"
Understand it could have 'read' as though it was directed conversation...... NOPE..... me = thinking out loud. Then typing, adding my thought to the conversation. As if it were some kind of interesting or anything. LOLOLO
noooooooooooo subtext of ANy kind.
none!!! nope. nope. nope.
Ohhhhhhhhh. I completely missed the joke. DOH! Now that you point it out I see it is a good one.
When I read I think it is T'Girl? I went into serious thinking mode. <another headslap>
I can see it now. IT WAS A JOKE
(which went right over my head) DOH!He was a Major who was quite a character.
The reason why TOS didn't get as many reruns in Australia is because 40 episodes were rated "G" in the 60s. 39 were rated "NRC" ("not recommended for children"). "The Man Trap" never aired in NSW until 1982. In the UK, four episodes were never screened, and some British fans hadn't seen those until home video.
In the 80s, the network with the renewed rights to TOS repeats elected not resubmit them to the Australian Chief Censor. Had they done so, most would have been cleared for "G" viewing. So everything got one rescreening in prime time, then the 40 G's moved to weekend afternoons and high rotation.
TOS in the 60s in USA was very popular with university students, who watched in crowded dorm rooms (as legend has it). By the time TMP came along, these fans had found each other, gone forth and multiplied, and raised their kids on TOS reruns.
IIRC, there was an intention to do a tribute episode or scene to the actress who played Elizabeth Cutler. They had paired her with Phlox, and liked the chemistry - I guess why "Rosetta" refers to her as a nurse? But the timing didn't work out, plus Trip's sister was also an Elizabeth, and the centre of a major ongoing storypoint, so they just let the Cutler character slide.
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