What's the difference between a starbase and a "deep space" station?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by t_smitts, Nov 15, 2021.

  1. Vale

    Vale Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2021
    I find my life is improved immeasurably by ignoring that Star Trek V: The Final Frontier ever happened at all :whistle:
     
    kkt likes this.
  2. dupersuper

    dupersuper Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2020
    Well, at least tiki torches are still popular in the 24th century...

    There's no saving the many times early Trek used quadrant and sector interchangeably.

    You don't need your pain?
     
    Vale likes this.
  3. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2014
    Location:
    Seattle
    DS9 was called DS9 even in the pilot episode when it was in orbit around Bajor, in Bajoran space. My impression is that DS9 and the Wormhole are also in Bajoran space. Ships undocking from DS9 and heading for the wormhole don't even go to warp speed before they go through the Wormhole.
     
  4. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2014
    Location:
    Seattle
    Or Deep Space stations are just stations that are outside Federation space; they are either in unclaimed space (K-7) or another sovereign civilization's space (DS9).
     
    Paul Weaver likes this.
  5. Lakenheath 72

    Lakenheath 72 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2014
    The star chart from Picard has starbases located outside of Federation space.
     
  6. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    That also works.
     
  7. Christmas Corps

    Christmas Corps Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Location:
    astral plane
    Canonically, Deep Space Station K7 is inside Federation territory [http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/42.htm]:

    SPOCK: Deep Space Station K7 now within sensor range, Captain.

    [...]

    KIRK: What is the position of the Klingon ship?
    CHEKOV: A hundred kilometres off K7. It's just sitting there.

    [...]

    KIRK: Captain Koloth. About that apology.
    KOLOTH: Yes?
    KIRK: You have six hours to get your ship out of Federation territory.
    (The tribbles shriek, Koloth makes a hasty bow and practically runs out of the room with Korax.)​
     
    F. King Daniel likes this.
  8. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    King Daniel Beyond
    For whatever it's worth, in the novelverse Bajor joins the Federation and DS9 retains it's name.

    I like the idea of "deep space" stations being outside of Fed territory, but "Trouble With Tribbles" doesn't support it.

    I wonder though if "name" stations like Starbase Montgomery, Farscape Starbase Earheart and Yorktown Base are all somehow special constructs, made and placed apart from Starfleet's ideal base positioning. Or maybe it's just a political thing.

    This is like trying to make sense of NCC numbers.
     
  9. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    ...Like we today use hour and minute interchangeably?

    There's no problem with having both quadrant and sector. And the former seems to be a subset of the latter, at least in ST2:TWoK, where the presence of the Reliant is increasingly unlikely when, as per Sulu's crescendo of statements, she's not just in the same sector, but also the same quadrant, and even showing signs of slowing.

    Quadrants tend to occur when there's a specific destination there - perhaps a single star system, even. Which is fine, and the only real problem is that dividing a generic volume in four (rather than, say, eight) is much less convenient than dividing the flat disk of the galaxy in four.

    True enough. Since the story revolves around contested neutral territory, though, and since the Klingons apparently have a comparable "outpost" a mere parsec away, we're clearly talking borderlands here. Might be this qualifies - or then there might even be a special arrangement of neutrality as regards the outposts from which the two sides compete over Sherman's, requiring Starfleet to call its outpost "deep space station" rather than "starbase".

    (Heck, perhaps the outposts themselves are territory, even when they don't reside within territory? Meaning that technically, Koloth could reverse his ship out of the parking lot and then remain loitering there, out of spite - but obviously he won't do that in this particular situation!)

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  10. Paul Weaver

    Paul Weaver Rear Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 1999
    Location:
    Cheshire, UK
    if we go by the book, like Lieutenant Saavik, hours could seem like days.
     
    dupersuper likes this.
  11. The Santalorian

    The Santalorian Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Location:
    JirinPanthosa
    Maybe it’s a function if distance from core Federation planets more than territory lines.
     
  12. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    That doesn't work too well, though, since even though DS9 and DSK-7 are at the apparent outer borders of the UFP, they are also right next to the core UFP planets - far closer than many other targets visited by our heroes, in terms of travel time references or direct distance references.

    Sure, the space where the UFP meets the Klingon Empire must have felt deep at one time. But that time was past after Archer's first journey already ("Broken Bow"). And it takes at most a week to go from Bajor to core and back on a dinky runabout, apparent top speed below warp five ("Defiant", "Dax").

    Might be the UFP still divides its space into shallow, middling and deep by dividing every line from Earth to the border into these three segments. But the line is awfully short in the directions of the known DS stations...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  13. Paul Weaver

    Paul Weaver Rear Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 1999
    Location:
    Cheshire, UK
    Regardless of the nomenclature, the travel time from

    To the core Federation systems can only be explained with handwavy things (warp corridors etc). Bajor and DS9 were originally supposed to be on the furthest stretches of known space. Turns out that the story required them to be within easy commuting distance of Ferenginar and Earth, and not too far from the Klingon empire.
     
    Shamrock Holmes likes this.
  14. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    I gather Bashir would estimate remoteness by the difficulty of commuting - and Bajor would have been out in the sticks in that sense until it became a destination of interest, frequented by basically everybody plus regular Sydney liners.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  15. Shawnster

    Shawnster Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2008
    Location:
    Clinton, OH
    I always assumed Deep Space Station K-7 was floating in deep space as opposed to being in a star system.

    On the other hand, Deep Space 9 was designated as such because it was "a long way" from Earth. This is specieist thinking because DS9 was not in deep space or a long way from Bajor. Of course. Bajor really isn't that far from Earth. Jake indicates it's only a 3 week trip (or less)
     
  16. Paul Weaver

    Paul Weaver Rear Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 1999
    Location:
    Cheshire, UK
    Presumably a long way from a Federation World.

    It wasn't that far from Starbase 375 -- 25 light years. Ferenginar was only 55 light years from S375 too.
     
  17. Christmas Corps

    Christmas Corps Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Location:
    astral plane
    Right, same here.

    And if one wants a more technical definition, maybe to get to a deep space station from another Federation facility you have to use warp drive, as opposed to impulse which will get you around the Solar System in hours or days at most to its far reaches. Like, maybe a deep space station is more than a day away from any other Federation facility at warp five.
     
  18. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    The heroes already use the term "space station" for free-floating structures, but aren't shy to call such a station a "deep space" one when it orbits an inhabited planet in "Emissary". Perhaps searching for a technical definition is the wrong approach, because even with the scant few examples, we already run into fairly fundamental contradictions.

    DS9 was in a neutral star system surrounded by neutral star systems but bordering on Cardassian heartlands - perhaps a pit carved in the hide of the Cardassian Union in the recent war with the UFP, but falling short of liberating Bajor (since trying to take this crown jewel would have meant too much bloodshed) or of converting the other "liberated" worlds to the UFP cause (they are anti-UFP and/or pro-Cardassian all whenever we meet them). So there are starbases nearby, but discreetly not too close, and presumably they mark the UFP border in this direction.

    DS9 was also just half a week from Vulcan in "Defiant" (Bashir wanted to make the two-way trip in a week there), using a runabout (which in "Dax" seems to be too slow to catch getaway vehicles that are capable of warp 5 or higher). But Cardassia Prime was just a day trip whenever our heroes went there. Later onscreen maps basically support this "small UFP scenario", even if scant few of them actually show Earth. Other, sometimes conflicting data abounds, but Bajor now seems well fixed in terms of cartography.

    DSK-7, along with Sherman's, only starts to appear on Star Charts -derived onscreen maps from DIS on. Klingons always felt "close", being handy arch-enemies that way. Space in their direction is also always contested ("No, it's not! It's clearly ours!") and perhaps even neutral (a Zone emerges at some point, to perhaps be disbanded in TUC), providing handy excuses for "deep" as opposed to alternatives. And space near DSK-7 involves a contest, certainly.

    That's pretty much the extent of our knowledge as per the locations. Could DSK-7 actually orbit a planet? Vulcan seen from space seems free of companion bodies most of the time - can those simply be behind the back of the cameraman in the space shots? Perhaps the apparent bright sunlight on the station in both TOS and TOS-R is due to the installation being deep inside a system, even if not actually orbiting a rock. DS3 and DS5 are unknowns even if the latter basks in sunlight in its "Parallels" appearance; the recent repair station had no obvious planetary neighbor in the screencaps, but those who saw the actual episode might perhaps tell otherwise.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  19. Christmas Corps

    Christmas Corps Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Location:
    astral plane
    Last time I checked, Bajor wasn't part of the Federation.
     
  20. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    And that's my preference here, too - "deep" simply equates "extrafederal", there being no need for further narrowing down because the rest of the evidence is all over the (star) charts anyway. And borders are borderline cases...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
    Shamrock Holmes likes this.