What's the deal with the Xindi probe?

[Timo]

Why would that be difficult to accept? We would get the very same thing if we tried to carbon-date something, cross-checked against our tables, and came up with the odd fact that the carbon in the sample has decayed less than if the object were created today. There's a mathematical method there that yields negative numbers in certain unlikely cases, one of these being time travel.

As for the probe, we learn that it time-traveled, for whatever reason. It stands to reason, then, that the eventual weapon would time-travel, too. Since Earth doesn't do time travel (yet!), there's no harm in trying out a little test version in 2151 and then following up on that with the Armageddon version in 2150. Or 1732 BC for that matter.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mach5]

Timo, time is relative, not absolute. If a 30-year old person traveled 100 years into the past, it would still be 30, not -70. Same goes for inanimate objects.

So yeah, Gaith is right, this is beyond doubt one of the stupidest plot points ever encountered in Star Trek. And Star Trek had its share of stupid over the decades.

 

[Timo]

What "time" "is" ought to be quite irrelevant here. If Archer's team dated that probe using a method where the gradual decay of something is compared against external standards (the way carbon dating works, deep down), they would have gotten a negative figure - and if a 30-year old person did travel 100 years to the past, this, too, would give the minus 70 years figure, because he would be 100 years early for the level of decay found in his... I suppose clothes or something else that might be suitably impregnated with this reference stuff, since his body probably would not.

Sure, the heroes could also have used a method that does not give results like that. But we need not assume this: the probe is built of stuff, and that stuff may well be decaying against some galactic standard at a steady rate and show up as a glaring anomaly if moved in time.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[eyeresist]

In "The Expanse" they talk about quantum dating, which at this point is an unknown science and, who knows, might provide a way to map temporal signatures. Chroniton particles are the usual Star Trek universe method of measuring temporal qualities (although I'd prefer it spelt "chronoton"):

http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Chroniton

 

[Gaith]

the probe is built of stuff, and that stuff may well be decaying against some galactic standard at a steady rate

That's an interesting idea, but you'd think it would have been mentioned in at least one of the many prior (subsequent) time travel-related Treks...

 

[Mach5]

What "time" "is" ought to be quite irrelevant here. If Archer's team dated that probe using a method where the gradual decay of something is compared against external standards (the way carbon dating works, deep down), they would have gotten a negative figure - and if a 30-year old person did travel 100 years to the past, this, too, would give the minus 70 years figure, because he would be 100 years early for the level of decay found in his... I suppose clothes or something else that might be suitably impregnated with this reference stuff, since his body probably would not.

Sure, the heroes could also have used a method that does not give results like that. But we need not assume this: the probe is built of stuff, and that stuff may well be decaying against some galactic standard at a steady rate and show up as a glaring anomaly if moved in time.

Timo Saloniemi

None of this makes any sense whatsoever. But hey, if it works for you...

 

[Mk_Sn]

I know some fans like the Xindi arc and think its when ENT got good or watchable, but I think it was just a silly attempt to relate to the "post 9/11" atmosphere America was in at the time and it doesn't make a lot of sense. I like how it builds some interesting stories for the fourth season, which is the only season I think that starts getting good.

 

[Mach5]

I know some fans like the Xindi arc and think its when ENT got good or watchable, but I think it was just a silly attempt to relate to the "post 9/11" atmosphere America was in at the time and it doesn't make a lot of sense. I like how it builds some interesting stories for the fourth season, which is the only season I think that starts getting good.

Xindi arc had its share of flaws and plotholes, but all in all, I like it for the atmosphere, character development, and some pretty decent action and drama.

 

[Mk_Sn]

It's definitely an improvement over the first two barren seasons, but even the first two seasons have a few gems. It has some good and noticeable episodes, and I like the fact they actually tried to do something different and do serious character development, which already raises it above anything featured on Voyager. However it's centered around that stupid "temporal cold war" plot, it has all kinds of confusing points and plotholes, and even further abandons the prequel premise, only for the next season to go full reverse, for the better IMO.

A season arc trying to find the Romulans or something more fitting to the prequel setting would have been more interesting and less confusing.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Timo, time is relative, not absolute. If a 30-year old person traveled 100 years into the past, it would still be 30, not -70. Same goes for inanimate objects.

So yeah, Gaith is right, this is beyond doubt one of the stupidest plot points ever encountered in Star Trek. And Star Trek had its share of stupid over the decades.

In a world of human aliens that speak English and a universe where time is constant irrespective of where you are and how fast you're travelling, magical time scanners don't seem like much of a leap.

 

[Mk_Sn]

Exactly, it's why I don't get hung up when Trek does or says something scientifically silly, since most of its universe is silly by scientific standards.

 

[Mach5]

Timo, time is relative, not absolute. If a 30-year old person traveled 100 years into the past, it would still be 30, not -70. Same goes for inanimate objects.

So yeah, Gaith is right, this is beyond doubt one of the stupidest plot points ever encountered in Star Trek. And Star Trek had its share of stupid over the decades.

In a world of human aliens that speak English and a universe where time is constant irrespective of where you are and how fast you're travelling, magical time scanners don't seem like much of a leap.

Did you miss the part where I said: "Star Trek had its share of stupid over the decades."?

You're right, it's not that much of a leap, it's just stupid. And the fact that there's an abundance of stupid in Star Trek doesn't change the fact that it's stupid in its own right.

 

[Mk_Sn]

Red matter!

 

[Mach5]

Red matter!

Neil deGrasse Tyson called the red matter 'cool', your argument is invalid.

 

[Mk_Sn]

I don't like those films though so it doesn't matter XD

 

[Go-Captain]

I cannot recall at all what makes the probe attack make any sense. It's true, Starfleet never should have found out who made the attack, but even with that it doesn't make sense.

Later on, we see the second device and it is tested on a small moon. That means the first device could have easily been tested in the same way.

Maybe the sphere builders ordered it for spherical reasons; kill a million people now, and make a battle in their present, in the distant future, a bit easier later, also buying them time until the big sphere can be used. I like that explanation because it's less expected, subtler, and more brutal.

I know some fans like the Xindi arc and think its when ENT got good or watchable, but I think it was just a silly attempt to relate to the "post 9/11" atmosphere America was in at the time and it doesn't make a lot of sense. I like how it builds some interesting stories for the fourth season, which is the only season I think that starts getting good.

It's actually the Suliban who are the post 9/11 tie in (Suliban purposely sounds like Taliban). They're inexplicable terrorists who can hide anywhere and strike anywhere. But they are handled very poorly and come off more like a weird sideshow. I also feel the Suliban work more like an excuse not to do period appropriate stories, even though some of them happened anyway.

It's true, the Xindi work the same way up to a point, only in that their test was more like a terror attack. But their intended attack was never meant as a terror attack, it was meant as a coup de grace. Once Starfleet knows who did the attack it turns into a heroic journey story like a space Illiad.

 

[Ithekro]

I tend to think the probe was to test if they could get to Earth (they had never been there before), and decided to do damage while testing their navigation.

The other possibility is that is was a later test that arrived earlier than expected due to temporal issues (the test being sent after Enterprise arrived in the Expanse, around the time of the other weapon test involving the Andorians). Though that also questions why the Andorian followed at all.

 

[Mk_Sn]

It's actually the Suliban who are the post 9/11 tie in (Suliban purposely sounds like Taliban). They're inexplicable terrorists who can hide anywhere and strike anywhere. But they are handled very poorly and come off more like a weird sideshow. I also feel the Suliban work more like an excuse not to do period appropriate stories, even though some of them happened anyway. It's true, the Xindi work the same way up to a point, only in that their test was more like a terror attack. But their intended attack was never meant as a terror attack, it was meant as a coup de grace. Once Starfleet knows who did the attack it turns into a heroic journey story like a space Illiad.

Yes, but the executive producers, Rick Berman and Brannon Braga said the Xindi attack was an analogy to 9/11 and thought that a shift that reflected the "post 9/11" America would grab viewers. It didn't, but oh well for them.

I tend to think the probe was to test if they could get to Earth (they had never been there before), and decided to do damage while testing their navigation.

It doesn't make any sense. "Let's go and send this small prototype to attack a planet we want to destroy, alerting them to our presence and intent!" Later in the season when they have more advanced versions, they test them on uninhabited moons and such, so why didn't they do that? Why didn't they send the more advanced ones to Earth as well? Why did they need to make the Death Star...I mean superweapon blow the entire planet to pieces when they could just seriously crack or damage it, killing all life? Why not just send a fleet of the small ones and devastate the surface? It just makes no sense when you think about it.

They also establish that the Xindi can time travel to present day Earth. Why not take a bunch of nukes or whatever and devastate the Earth? The plot makes no sense, but oh well.

 

[Ithekro]

If I recall, filming for the pilot of Enterprise (Broken Bow) was finished before the 9/11 attacks. The episode aired by the end of Sepember of 2001. So while the Taliban has been in the news before 9/11, the direct connection was not entirely present when written.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It doesn't make any sense. "Let's go and send this small prototype to attack a planet we want to destroy, alerting them to our presence and intent!"

Did you even read my earlier post? If not for the intervention of Future Guy, nobody would have ever known that it was the Xindi who sent the probe. The probe itself did not alert Earth to anything or anyone - it was Future Guy who did that.

And the Xindi obviously had no idea that FG would tell Archer about the probe's origin, so they can't be blamed for it.