What's the deal with the Xindi probe?

[Mk_Sn]

That still doesn't answer it. Even without some Dr. Claw style shadow (side note, one of the worst plot points in any Trek series ever) telling the Enterprise crew who sent it, why would anyone risk being discovered? After all, their later probes are used in faraway uninhabited systems, so it makes no sense to test an even less powerful one to just kill a few million and potentially alert them to either your presence or put them on high defense for any further attacks.

The probe did not alert Earth to anything or anyone.

It alerted them they were attacked, with a corpse and ship. A million different ways could have been written for Earth to find out who did it, which begs the question on why even do it to begin with. Also, they bizarrely (or I guess not so much since this is a time travel plot) establish Xindi traveling back in time to Earth trying to build some disease, so why didn't they just send a bunch of powerful weapons back in time and destroy Earth? Why not send the probe to a time period long before to destroy Earth? Time travel plots really only work when you establish you can't just time travel anywhere at will, or else it just opens up a bunch of plotholes. The Xindi plot is just nonsensical when you think of it, and not terribly interesting.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ The Xindi could not possibly know that they would ever be discovered. They had no idea that Future Guy even existed, let alone the fact that he would tell Archer who sent the probe and where it came from. So from the Xindi's point of view, it really didn't make any difference whether or not they tested the probe on Earth or any other planet.

Besides, the Xindi may have even considered it beneficial to intentionally test the probe on Earth, to throw humanity into a panic before its eventual death. An enemy that is confused and disoriented is one that's all the less likely to be able to retaliate.

 

[Mk_Sn]

So the Xindi are unbelievable morons who don't understand that killing millions for no reason (why do they do it anyway...?) can potentially ruin your plans of planetary destruction, especially with your technology and a corpse lying around. That just makes it even more confusing, why were they the ones the changeling looking aliens (how creative) entrusted in blowing up Earth? If it were a prelude to an imminent invasion and the attack damaged Earth's defenses, that would make sense.

Also, why don't they test their other versions on Earth? Apparently to keep themselves hidden. Um..

I'm asking for logic though from a show that was desperately trying to get views by making a 9/11 analogy that heavily involved confusing time travel plots. So the jokes on me.

 

[Ithekro]

My assumption is that they knew the smaller weapon worked, but wanted to test to see if they could get to Earth first, and then to see if they remained undetected (successfull test). The larger version test had a large potental to fail and this was tested where it could not easily be captured (they hoped). Earth still did not have the ability to trace Xindi ships. They didn't have a known species, nor a direction they came from. without temporal interference, the only thing Earth would have been able to do is keep asking around (no know they knew had answers), and perhaps have a small fleet standing by at all times at Earth, which would end up being futile anyway if the device arrived.

The Xindi plan was fine as it was. Time travel shenanigans are the only thing that saved Earth, and only because Future Guy knew that without Earth, his future was screwed. Power plays yes, but the whole planet gone? No. Not happening in his timestream.

 

[eyeresist]

I also feel the Suliban work more like an excuse not to do period appropriate stories, even though some of them happened anyway.

I don't get this argument. Not everything has to be leading up to TOS. And I can actually imagine the Suliban as a TOS-era villain.

They also establish that the Xindi can time travel to present day Earth. Why not take a bunch of nukes or whatever and devastate the Earth? The plot makes no sense, but oh well.

The Xindi couldn't time-travel on their own - they were sent to the past by the Spheroids.

 

[Mk_Sn]

The Xindi couldn't time-travel on their own - they were sent to the past by the Spheroids.

That makes it even more nonsensical because if people could just will them anywhere in time, why the hell don't they go back to ancient history and kill off humanity? Go back whenever and blow up the Earth or devastate it with a plague or poison the atmosphere or prevent human evolution, whatever?

My assumption is that they knew the smaller weapon worked, but wanted to test to see if they could get to Earth first, and then to see if they remained undetected (successfull test). The larger version test had a large potental to fail and this was tested where it could not easily be captured (they hoped). Earth still did not have the ability to trace Xindi ships. They didn't have a known species, nor a direction they came from. without temporal interference, the only thing Earth would have been able to do is keep asking around (no know they knew had answers), and perhaps have a small fleet standing by at all times at Earth, which would end up being futile anyway if the device arrived.

If this is true, which is a stretch, why didn't they test the newer weapons on Earth too? Did the Empire test the Death Star in such a manner on Alderan btw? XD

Again, a million ways could have been written of Earth finding them, it's silly to test weapons on enemies when you can just keep in the shadows and send your superweapon with no one knowing. Or have your Dr Claw guy tell them before the superweapon and just convince them with enough evidence, or just blow up the superweapon yourself since you can time travel and it just makes my head hurt thinking of the plotholes.

Overall, it's not a bad season, but it's nothing too great. And I say that as one of those Trek fans who likes the last season and kinda defends it.

 

[Go-Captain]

Yes, but the executive producers, Rick Berman and Brannon Braga said the Xindi attack was an analogy to 9/11 and thought that a shift that reflected the "post 9/11" America would grab viewers. It didn't, but oh well for them.

Now I think you're right, as I vaguely recall this. That means they did the terrorism angle as arc fodder twice and failed, and they did it backwards.

I don't get this argument. Not everything has to be leading up to TOS. And I can actually imagine the Suliban as a TOS-era villain.

I don't mean that, not exactly, even though I think season 4 is what the show should have been all along. It's not even just for the sake of connecting ENT to TOS, it's the episode "Terra Prime" which I think best illustrates the type of episodes we should have been getting. It exposes us to the political and cultural period in a way no other episode manages or attempts, and it's simply well done over all.

I also think there needed to be more episodes which show us Archer messing up due to lack of previous experience. Things like making enemies, making situations worse for people he helps, and involving Earth where it does not want to be. It would be a counterpoint to Kirk killing machine gods, and Picard leaving non-warp civilizations alone, to a fault. Failures and success together would have been good fodder for why the Prime Directive is eventually made. He could even handle things a little less ideally, he is after all a more primitive man than Kirk and Picard. Then again, he kind of does.

In "Cogenitor" rather than granting asylum, he orders Charles, the cogenitor, back to the Vissians, where Charles then commits suicide, and then Archer brow beats Trip for having given Charles hope. But this is all based on some idea of non-interference which Archer pulls out of no where, on the other hand he is obsessed with getting political relations off to a good start in that episode.

They also establish that the Xindi can time travel to present day Earth. Why not take a bunch of nukes or whatever and devastate the Earth? The plot makes no sense, but oh well.

Do you mean the 21th century episode where the Xindi are going to release some sort of plague or chemical agent in Earth's past? I completely forgot that episode. Which one is that?

 

[Mk_Sn]

You know, I should probably rewatch the third season before complaining so much about it. Perhaps the plotholes are explained? In fact, I'm going to re-watch the entire series, since I started a new job and out of school for the summer, I have plenty of time to waste watching Netflix. I'll make a more thorough opinion then. Even with these complaints, I consider it an improvement over the first two barren seasons, and it's certainly captivating enough that I wanted to finish the season last time I saw it.

Do you mean the 21th century episode where the Xindi are going to release some sort of plague or chemical agent in Earth's past? I completely forgot that episode. Which one is that?

Don't remember too much on it, but there's some episode where that Daniels character pops out of nowhere (not sure why he doesn't help them in their quest to find the weapon more) and sends them to modern day Detroit where Xindi are building a bioweapon to kill humanity. You know, if the Xindi could just time travel and have the ability to just wipe out humanity with a plague, why are they bothering to build the death star? This is even more confusing than testing the weapon on Earth or not using that prototype that cracks a whole moon to pieces on Earth that would certainly kill off humanity and get the job done.

Now I think you're right, as I vaguely recall this. That means they did the terrorism angle as arc fodder twice and failed, and they did it backwards.

Yeah but by then, Braga and Berman were burnt out writers who thought they'd get a guaranteed seven seasons and guaranteed checks. So not a lot could have been expected from them.

 

[eyeresist]

In "Cogenitor" rather than granting asylum, he orders Charles, the cogenitor, back to the Vissians, where Charles then commits suicide, and then Archer brow beats Trip for having given Charles hope. But this is all based on some idea of non-interference which Archer pulls out of no where, on the other hand he is obsessed with getting political relations off to a good start in that episode.

I don't think he pulled it out of nowhere. He knows the Vulcans have a similar policy, and as he says to Trip, "We're out here to meet new species, not tell them what to do." But poor Trip thought he was in the TOS universe, teaching aliens how to lurv!
Good point about Archer maybe needing to mess up more, though I'm not sure the fans would have stood for it.

The Xindi couldn't time-travel on their own - they were sent to the past by the Spheroids.

That makes it even more nonsensical because if people could just will them anywhere in time, why the hell don't they go back to ancient history and kill off humanity? Go back whenever and blow up the Earth or devastate it with a plague or poison the atmosphere or prevent human evolution, whatever?

That actually was the plan in the episode Carpenter Street - the Xindi were hidden in the past, developing a disease to wipe out humanity.

 

[Mk_Sn]

That actually was the plan in the episode Carpenter Street - the Xindi were hidden in the past, developing a disease to wipe out humanity.

Why didn't they just do it again?

 

[Ithekro]

Every loop get stopped by some time traveler or another. This one was stopped by Archer. The one before that, Janeway. The one after that, Kirk. The one after that, some guy flying a police box. No one can really catch a break trying to wipe out humanity via time travel. Just too many protectors.

 

[eyeresist]

That actually was the plan in the episode Carpenter Street - the Xindi were hidden in the past, developing a disease to wipe out humanity.

Why didn't they just do it again?

And maybe they are doing it in other locations, but the Temporal Police keep putting them out of business.

 

[Mk_Sn]

Why did they need Archer to do this? Why don't the temporal FBI just stop the Xindi and the Sphere Builders?

 

[Ithekro]

Probably a mountain of temporal interference treaties. Using locals under the table seems to be the way around those sorts of treaties.

 

[eyeresist]

Also, why not use Archer? He's only doing the scut work really, while the time cops are elsewhere doing high-end time manipulation stuff.

 

[Mk_Sn]

Red tape, exciting explanation.

 

[Ithekro]

Well we've heard mention of a Temporal Prime Directive and that there is a Temporal Cold War going on. In a Cold War, the various factions would make efforts to undermine the other factions without being caught doing so to avoid have a Hot War, where your own people have to get their hands dirty. Instead they use proxy goverments, agents, and people from other time periods to do their dirty work for them.

The Sphere Builders have issues with normal space in addition to the temporal problems. Future Guy and Daniels are moving pieces in a far larger war that somehow decided that Archer was a focal point. It seems that Earth needs to survive up to at least Future Guy's time period, but the Federation is not needed.

 

[Gaith]

You know, I should probably rewatch the third season before complaining so much about it. Perhaps the plotholes are explained?

Ooh! Ooh! Call on me! I know the answer to this one! I know it!

... It's "No!"