Whatever happened to that Ambassador job Worf?

[dHunter333]

there WAS a deleted scene from star trek nemesis (terrible decision to cut it) where worf says something about how he stepped down, politics wasnt for him, and went back to starfleet to serve on the enterprise

i'm not sure if its on the 2 disc dvd version or not
but you might be able to find it on youtube
you can definately read about it if you type star trek nemesis deleted scenes in google!


wish they'd re release nemesis (and all the movies) extended versions (and wish wesley wasnt in a starfleet uniform during the wedding)

 

[nx1701g]

^ That's mentioned above thread.

 

[Myasishchev]

Sci, you're interested in the (putative) mechanisms of Federation government--do you figure ambassadors have to be confirmed by the Fed Council, like our Senate does, or can the President just appoint willy-nilly? I'd suspect the Federation has at least as many checks and balances as the U.S. government, if not more.

Hmm. An interesting question. The novel A Time for War, A Time for Peace had a subplot wherein it was mentioned that when a new President takes office, all currently-serving Federation ambassadors tender their resignations so as to give the President the choice of retaining them or finding new ambassadors as the President sees fit. I don't remember a reference to the Council needing to ratify an ambassador or not.

My inclination would be to conjecture that the Council ratifies ambassadorial appointments to foreign states but not Ambassador-at-Large appointments, but that's just my guess.

I do know that the novels depict ambassadors as being members of the Federation Diplomatic Corps (which was mentioned in Star Trek: Insurrection), which seems to be a division of the Federation Department of the Exterior (the Federation's equivalent to the U.S. State Dept. or a foreign ministry).

Seems reasonable.

Actually, the DS9 episode "Extreme Measures" refers to Jaresh-Inyo as being a former President by the time of DS9 Season Seven (2375). The novel A Time to Kill by David Mack and the eBook Enterprises of Great Pitch and Motion by Keith R.A. DeCandido establish that DS9 Season Four, 2372, was an election year, and that shortly after "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost," Jaresh-Inyo lost the election to then-Federation Councillor Min Zife, a Bolian who ran on a platform of increased militancy in anticipation of the Dominion War. Zife assumed office in early 2373 (DS9 Season Five) and resigned in 2379, just before Star Trek: Nemesis (as per the novels A Time to Heal by Mack and A Time for War, A Time for Peace by DeCandido), succeeded after a special election by Governor Nanietta Bacco of Cestus III.

I wasn't actually sure whether Jaresh-Inyo was still in the office... Zife was the scumbag, right?

Well, the first thing I would point out is that Worf has never sided with the Klingon Empire over the Federation, nor, with the exception of one incident (saving Jadzia, his wife, over a Cardassian defector), has he ever done anything to undermine the Federation.

Six words: Let he who is without sin.

Probably the ultimate test of his loyalty to the Federation came in 2372 ("The Way of the Warrior" [DS9]), where Worf sided with the Federation over the Klingon Empire after the Empire sought to invade the Cardassian Union to overthrow the Detapa Council.

I'll grant that, generally, he's been pretty faithful. But although it's not 100% clear where Starfleet duty lies when dealing with a foreign head of government, it still seems iffy to kill him.

It's a potential conflict of interest, but it's also a potential source of leverage for the Federation for a couple of reasons. One, his relationship with Martok means that the Chancellor is more likely to listen to him and to trust him than he would any other Federate. This increases Worf's ability to influence Martok. Two, it also makes Martok inherently more likely to feel, and/or to enact policies, favorable to the Federation, helping to solidify an alliance that both sides need in the wake of the war. Three, Martok literally owes his job to Worf; that means that Worf has some bargaining power over him. Four, Worf has a better understanding of Klingon culture than damn near anyone else in the Federation.

These are valid counterpoints.

He has little formal diplomatic experience in terms of holding a political office, but in terms of solid experience, he's one of the most influential political actors in Klingon politics. He entered politics as far back as 2365 (TNG S2), when he allowed himself to be discommendated by the Klingon High Council to preserve Klingon unity. From there, he participated in the post-K'mpec succession crisis, supporting Gowron over House Duras and helping to save the Empire (and therefore the Federation) from having a Romulan puppet government on Qo'noS. His actions led to the installation of the Klingon Emperor, Kahless II, and to the exposure of the Changeling impersonating Martok. He then saved Martok and restored him to the Defense Force, led Klingon forces numerous times during the war, and overthrew Gowron and installed Martok. In other words, Worf has been either personally or partially responsible for the last two Chancellors' ascensions to power and for the installation of the Emperor himself.

The guy's got some experience, 'kay?

These too.

Actually, that would probably be more akin to the U.S. Ambassador to the United Kingdom being Gordon Brown's adopted brother. (And, yes, the relationship between Martok and Worf is more brother-brother than father-son.)

I'll agree with that...

The Klingon Empire is the Federation's partner and ally, and apparently its closest such; it's a much less adversarial relationship than that which exists between the U.S. and People's Republic of China.

...but not this. We didn't fight a war with the UK three years before appointing Gordon Brown's imaginary bro to the ambassadorship.

Actually, one could very easily turn it around and spin it another way:

From a Klingon nationalist's POV, the whole thing makes Martok look much more like he's Worf's -- and by extension, the Federation's -- puppet than the other way around. I mean, seriously. Gowron gets his job because Worf and Starfleet ally against the House of Duras during the Klingon Civil War. Then Worf puts the Emperor into office. Then Worf sides with the Federation when the Klingons decide to save the Alpha Quadrant by overthrowing what they believe to be a Dominion puppet government on Cardassia -- and then, after the Federation finally starts fighting the Cardassians/Dominion, the minute Worf and Starfleet get unhappy with Gowron's policies, they overthrow him and install Martok.

Really, in a lot of ways, Martok has much more to lose from Worf being Federation Ambassador to the Klingon Empire than the other way around. It's going to make a lot of folks in the First City wonder if Martok isn't in essence a Federation puppet chancellor rather than his own man.

I really do like this--I hadn't thought of that.

 

[Sci]

I wasn't actually sure whether Jaresh-Inyo was still in the office... Zife was the scumbag, right?

Sí. Well, kind of.

Spoiler: A Time to Kill; A Time to Heal

Zife was basically little more than the puppet of his Chief of Staff, Koll Azernal of Zakdorn. Azernal developed many key strategies that saved the Federation during the Dominion War, and Zife certainly led the Federation through that crisis and through several others that popped up in the immediate aftermath of the war. So he deserves that much respect. On the other hand, he also invaded the independent world of Tezwa on false pretenses, getting thousands of Federates killed for his corruption. Zife and Azernal are basically Bush and Cheney in that regard.

Probably the ultimate test of his loyalty to the Federation came in 2372 ("The Way of the Warrior" [DS9]), where Worf sided with the Federation over the Klingon Empire after the Empire sought to invade the Cardassian Union to overthrow the Detapa Council.

I'll grant that, generally, he's been pretty faithful. But although it's not 100% clear where Starfleet duty lies when dealing with a foreign head of government, it still seems iffy to kill him.

I disagree. First off -- remember that it was Sisko who more or less gave Worf the order to do something to stop Chancellor Gowron because his intentionally incompetent strategies were endangering the entire war effort -- costing thousands of Klingon lives, and endangering the entire Federation and Romulan & Klingon Empires. Then there's the fact that Worf's challenge, and then killing, of Gowron was perfectly legal under Klingon law -- and that it occurred on a Bajoran station where Bajoran law applied, meaning that no Federation laws were violated.

One could, in fact, make an argument that Gowron, by intentionally losing battles, was deliberately betraying the Federation -- thereby de facto allying himself with the Dominion, and making a Federation operation to remove him from office perfectly legitimate. Alternately, and this is probably a stronger argument, one could argue that Gowron was engaging in treason against the Klingon Empire, in which case any Klingon citizen -- and Worf remains a Klingon citizen -- has the right to challenge him and kill him in combat to remove a traitor from the Klingon government.

These are valid counterpoints.
<SNIP>
These too.

Thankee!

Actually, that would probably be more akin to the U.S. Ambassador to the United Kingdom being Gordon Brown's adopted brother. (And, yes, the relationship between Martok and Worf is more brother-brother than father-son.)

I'll agree with that...

The Klingon Empire is the Federation's partner and ally, and apparently its closest such; it's a much less adversarial relationship than that which exists between the U.S. and People's Republic of China.

...but not this. We didn't fight a war with the UK three years before appointing Gordon Brown's imaginary bro to the ambassadorship.

Fair enough -- but there again, bear in mind that the Federation and the Empire went to war because the Empire was being manipulated from within by the Dominion, and that they had been allied for the better part of a century prior to that (just as the U.S. and U.K. have been allied for the better part of a century now).

Actually, one could very easily turn it around and spin it another way:

From a Klingon nationalist's POV, the whole thing makes Martok look much more like he's Worf's -- and by extension, the Federation's -- puppet than the other way around. I mean, seriously. Gowron gets his job because Worf and Starfleet ally against the House of Duras during the Klingon Civil War. Then Worf puts the Emperor into office. Then Worf sides with the Federation when the Klingons decide to save the Alpha Quadrant by overthrowing what they believe to be a Dominion puppet government on Cardassia -- and then, after the Federation finally starts fighting the Cardassians/Dominion, the minute Worf and Starfleet get unhappy with Gowron's policies, they overthrow him and install Martok.

Really, in a lot of ways, Martok has much more to lose from Worf being Federation Ambassador to the Klingon Empire than the other way around. It's going to make a lot of folks in the First City wonder if Martok isn't in essence a Federation puppet chancellor rather than his own man.

I really do like this--I hadn't thought of that.

Thanks! Though I'd say that that's actually part of the plot of The Left Hand of Destiny, the two-part novel written by J.G. Hertzler ("Martok") and Jeffrey Lang about Martok returning to Qo'noS immediately after "What You Leave Behind" only to face an attempted coup.

 

[Myasishchev]

I didn't know Hertzler wrote a book too. That's really cool. Who next, Jeff Combs?

Then there's the fact that Worf's challenge, and then killing, of Gowron was perfectly legal under Klingon law -- and that it occurred on a Bajoran station where Bajoran law applied, meaning that no Federation laws were violated.

Hm, I hadn't thought of this, either. Surely knifing a guy to death is illegal under Bajoran law, although for obvious reasons no one ever brought charges against Worf.

 

[Sci]

I didn't know Hertzler wrote a book too. That's really cool. Who next, Jeff Combs?

Then there's the fact that Worf's challenge, and then killing, of Gowron was perfectly legal under Klingon law -- and that it occurred on a Bajoran station where Bajoran law applied, meaning that no Federation laws were violated.

Hm, I hadn't thought of this, either. Surely knifing a guy to death is illegal under Bajoran law, although for obvious reasons no one ever brought charges against Worf.

Maybe. Or maybe the Klingons had a diplomatic agreement that a room being used by the Klingon Defense Force aboard DS9 to plan its internal strategies would constitute Klingon soil for the duration of such use. Or whatever.

But either way, the Federation wouldn't legally be involved at all.

 

[Myasishchev]

I didn't know Hertzler wrote a book too. That's really cool. Who next, Jeff Combs?

Then there's the fact that Worf's challenge, and then killing, of Gowron was perfectly legal under Klingon law -- and that it occurred on a Bajoran station where Bajoran law applied, meaning that no Federation laws were violated.

Hm, I hadn't thought of this, either. Surely knifing a guy to death is illegal under Bajoran law, although for obvious reasons no one ever brought charges against Worf.

Maybe. Or maybe the Klingons had a diplomatic agreement that a room being used by the Klingon Defense Force aboard DS9 to plan its internal strategies would constitute Klingon soil for the duration of such use. Or whatever.

But either way, the Federation wouldn't legally be involved at all.

Not at all necessarily. Many U.S. laws apply extraterritorially (afaik, the Supreme Court has ruled that the presumption is that they do not, but if the statute expressly applies to U.S. citizens outside the U.S., it does so apply--e.g., the Aramco Title IX discrimination case, I don't have the cite handy, sorry). The upshot of this is that, for example, federal drug laws do not cease to apply simply because you've taken a vacation to Colombia.

If murder statutes exist on the federal level in the Federation, and expressly apply outside the Federation, then Worf could be charged regardless of the owner of the soil he killed Gowron on. Indeed, there is no guarantee that the Fed Supreme Court would see the issue the same way as our own, and need not have found the same limiting presumption to Federation law.

Of course, it is always that inter arma enim silent leges.

 

[HairOfTheDog]

Simply put, no.

There are several workable explanations however, one of which you mention in your post - he turned it down off screen.

According to non-canon (specifically the Star Trek: The Next Generation relaunch books and the upcoming Star Trek Online's Path to 2409 future history) he rejoins the U.S.S. Enterprise-E to act as Picard's first officer, but only after some hearty persuasion from Picard himself. He then later returns to his role as Federation Ambassador to Qo'nos and/or captains his own ship in the Klingon Defense Force depending on what you're reading or looking at.

There's nothing to say he couldn't be First Officer aboard the Enterprise as well as Ambassador to Qo'nos though, he'd just have to travel to Qo'nos whenever needed (or to the Federation Council or whichever). Also let's not forget Nemesis, which is canon, and that has him attending Will and Deanna's wedding on the Enterprise-E, as well as having bridge shifts... for some reason. Guessing old times' sake.

Just another reason to hate ST Nemesis

Yep.