What Would Jellico Do?

[Brobdingnag]

In Chernobyl, the people (Engineers and Phds) knew that they all received a fatal dose and were going to die no matter what they still did the job incredibly well and prevented the disaster from becoming about a thousand times worse. I've seen the documentary. I was crying like a baby in the end...

I mean they could have used their last moments getting passed out drunk but they didn't.

 

[Ragitsu]

The statement "that's an order" was pretty ridiculous under those circumstances... if Geordi refuses, the whole ship goes pfoom. Kind of impossible to court martial a guy when you and he are both reduced to ions.

For some reason, I was reminded of Ming the Merciless. "Atoms" in place of "ions", maybe?

 

[Brobdingnag]

For some reason, I was reminded of Ming the Merciless. "Atoms" in place of "ions", maybe?

You mean the movie from the 1980s?

 

[Oddish]

In Chernobyl, the people (Engineers and Phds) knew that they all received a fatal dose and were going to die no matter what they still did the job incredibly well and prevented the disaster from becoming about a thousand times worse.

And the real Geordi would have sacrificed himself just as readily, if he knew there was no other way to save the ship. I simply meant that saying "that's an order" was meaningless under the circumstances.

 

[Orphalesion]

And the real Geordi would have sacrificed himself just as readily, if he knew there was no other way to save the ship. I simply meant that saying "that's an order" was meaningless under the circumstances.

Of course he would, he's a hero.
I think the "that's an order" was necessary for the simulation, Riker's way of making sure Troi understood the gravity of the situation and that it was her responsibility.

 

[Ragitsu]

Of course he would, he's a hero.
I think the "that's an order" was necessary for the simulation, Riker's way of making sure Troi understood the gravity of the situation and that it was her responsibility.

It's that professional detachment she has to grasp. This is different from asking a buddy for a glass of lemonade.

 

[Oddish]

What I want to know is do you pass the test if you try to repair the conduit yourself. A person should not demand such a sacrifice of another unless they are willing to make it themself.

 

[Orphalesion]

What I want to know is do you pass the test if you try to repair the conduit yourself. A person should not demand such a sacrifice of another unless they are willing to make it themself.

It might actually be easier for a lot of people to sacrifice themselves than ordering someone else to their death and then live with that knowledge, so I think it'd make sense if you fail the test if you sacrifice yourself. Plus a commander sometimes has to live with the fact that they, as the leader, are less expendable than their subordinates.
Plus if all the tests are as tailor-made as Troi's then they might very well try to create situations where the person taking the test would have been incapable of doing the task that requires the sacrifice.
In Troi's case, for example she couldn't have taken Geordie's place, since Troi likely wouldn't have been able to repair that conduit herself, lacking the technical know-how.

And really, if it had been an actual situation rather than the test Riker designed, I could very much imagine Geordie would have suggested that he go there and repair that conduit himself (knowing that it would lead to his death), but in the test Troi had to figure it out and delegate, that's likely also why Geordie hesitated so much and why he and Worf gave Troi that "are you sure?" look.

 

[Mojochi]

What I want to know is do you pass the test if you try to repair the conduit yourself..

Well, in this case, I have to imagine that since the test ended once she gave the order, & not after the repairs were completed by Holo-Geordi, then the test itself wasn't about the fix, but rather merely about the wherewithal to order subordinates to death.

As such, I could imagine the simulation modifying itself, if you took the task upon yourself, such that circumstances still break down somehow, until you choose the right command decision, just like I imagine that the Kobiyashi Maru could have multitudes of employable strategies participants might attempt, which would still have to somehow circle back to the participant losing in some way, as part of the program

That's why the only person to never face the test head on is the only one to best it, not by employing some strategy that outmaneuvered the circumstances, but by hacking into the simulation itself, which apparently wasn't against the rules of the test at that time, & if the participant somehow realized they'd been deliberately put into an artificially generated no win situation, & felt that was unfair, then ethically it's no less fair to just bypass the whole thing altogether. Basically, Kirk called BS on the test itself lol

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

What I want to know is do you pass the test if you try to repair the conduit yourself. A person should not demand such a sacrifice of another unless they are willing to make it themself.

Presumably this is a part of the test - it's specifically a task that needs a skillset that the test taker does not have, or at the skill level that would get the job done. Like the whole reason a ship is staffed with a crew of specialists is because the ship needs all these people in different positions to get the job done. So the point of a test like this, with a condition like this, is that the officer in question needs to not just be able to send off someone to die but is also in a position where the skills they have can't get the job done in time, but the person who they're sending in does.

Yes, it's noble to be in a position where you as the leader will not ask someone to do something they aren't. But sometimes, the person who is best suited for the task, best able to accomplish the task, is not the leader, and it's equally noble to step back and say "I cannot accomplish this myself, but you can."

 

[Oddish]

Yes, it's noble to be in a position where you as the leader will not ask someone to do something they aren't. But sometimes, the person who is best suited for the task, best able to accomplish the task, is not the leader, and it's equally noble to step back and say "I cannot accomplish this myself, but you can."

That goes without saying. But, a person should at least ask: "if you talked me through it, could I make the repairs?" If nothing else, it makes it clear to all involved (including the poor bastard you're sacrificing) that you were willing to do yourself what you're asking of them.

Of course, in the end, it doesn't matter. I think that Troi should not have passed the test, since it was a test of character and will, not a puzzle to be solved. And it still pisses me off that she got promoted over the much more deserving Data.

 

[Mudd]

Good afternoon.

Though I'm not a Jellico advocate, I did enjoy seeing Ronny Cox on The Next Generation and his character was - at the minimum - a competent Captain. As of late, I wonder how he'd handle some of the more unorthodox situations that Picard faced.

1. Q Who. Would he tolerate Q's antics as much as Picard? Would he exhibit the necessarily humility at the crucial moment?

2. The Survivors. Would he catch on to Kevin's true nature (or as quickly as Picard)? Would he ask Kevin to go along with imprisonment or would he similarly give him up without a fight?

3. Final Mission. Hell, how would Jellico handle/mentor Wesley (if at all)?

4. The Wounded. Jellico may have sympathized with Maxwell more, but would he go along with Maxwell's plan or would he also take the man in for questioning/punishment?

5. Darmok. Yikes?

6. Man of the People. I don't *think* he could play greater hardball with Alkar, but I could very well be wrong.

7. Starship Mine. This would be a treat to watch.

8. The Pegasus. Would Pressman find an ally in Jellico?

He was narrow-minded and inflexible.

Therefore, he'd have fucked all those situations up.

Next.

 

[Brobdingnag]

I would have loved a Jellico show, I mean the same as TNG except with Jellico as the gallant captain, he would have made demoted able crewman Riker scrub these plasma conduits so clean you could have seen yourself in them.

 

[Mojochi]

I think that Troi should not have passed the test, since it was a test of character and will, not a puzzle to be solved.

This is a valid point that's why this "test" always bugged me a bit too. If this were a test of skills, then it would make sense that you might be able to hone yours enough to master it eventually, like a driver's test or something

But if this is a test of character, wherein its ultimate goal is to ascertain whether someone has the right makeup for the role, then it's downright reckless to give her umpteen different opportunities to retake it, until she can get the right hint from the proctor that leads her to the conclusion that it's a question of character they're judging.

Wouldn't the point be to find someone who exhibits the "right stuff" organically, not someone who has to be spoon fed the reality of the thing? I mean having to be training wheeled all the way to the point makes it not a test at all, because when she finally does choose to send someone in to die, she's not making that choice of her own will. She's only making it because it's the correct deduction

Plus the whole storyline undercuts Deanna IMHO, because she couldn't get there organically, when we know from experience she clearly has that wherewithal, after seeing how she handled the crew's lives being in jeopardy in Disaster. I mean her ordering Ro & O'Brien to risk their lives by staying to help the crew is basically the same damn thing, & IMHO should just be recognized as having completed such a qualification as this test credits.

 

[Mudd]

I would have loved a Jellico show, I mean the same as TNG except with Jellico as the gallant captain, he would have made demoted able crewman Riker scrub these plasma conduits so clean you could have seen yourself in them

Who would care?

 

[Orphalesion]

While I liked that Troi was promoted, I agree that letting her re-do the test *that* many times was a bit suspect.
I'm pretty sure in real life with that sort of tests you get a set number of tries and if you don't pass you are barred from taking the test again for a considerate amount of time.

On the other hand, the test was very much presented as a puzzle and not a test of her character. To me, it didn't seem so much that she was reluctant to sacrifice Geordie, it rather seemed like she didn't understand what she was supposed to do.

 

[Oddish]

Who would care?

It's less a matter of caring than the show just being uninteresting. Jellico would surround himself with subordinates who were competent, but didn't question his decisions, or think outside the box. I could see either Data or Worf doing quite well under him. But "people following their captain's orders" won't make a long running show.

 

[Brobdingnag]

While I liked that Troi was promoted, I agree that letting her re-do the test *that* many times was a bit suspect.
I'm pretty sure in real life with that sort of tests you get a set number of tries and if you don't pass you are barred from taking the test again for a considerate amount of time.

On the other hand, the test was very much presented as a puzzle and not a test of her character. To me, it didn't seem so much that she was reluctant to sacrifice Geordie, it rather seemed like she didn't understand what she was supposed to do.

Actually, it's more than suspect, it's stupid. With that kind of test, you get a limited amount of time to give your answer. If you pass the test the second time you should at least get a completely different question unrelated to the first one otherwise it's like instead of having ten minutes to solve the problem you get three days and a half. It completely defeats the purpose but sometimes I wonder if they aren't stupid on purpose because they are so effingly stupid, It's just unbelievable.

 

[Mojochi]

On the other hand, the test was very much presented as a puzzle and not a test of her character. To me, it didn't seem so much that she was reluctant to sacrifice Geordie, it rather seemed like she didn't understand what she was supposed to do.

& she didn't understand, because unlike the Kobayashi Maru, there is a solution. It's not a test of character in facing a no win scenario, but it is a test of character, that command is ultimately a duty to send people to die. The turning point in her thinking was not an engineering problem at all. The solution wasn't technical. It was administrative. It was recognizing her prioritization of duty & that one individual life is not at the top.

I'd say that the test itself wasn't posed necessarily as a puzzle, but her approach in trying to field it was like she was trying to solve a puzzle. The test itself was just posed as a potential event she might face. It was her choice to approach it like an engineering puzzle, & after she got stuck in that rut, Riker even started to tell her it wasn't going to happen, & if he hadn't kind of given her a *wink wink* hint, she'd have kept thinking in that vein. Her failure was in not being a person that solves the problem by commanding. Once she got clued into that being the issue, she made the call, but ultimately it wasn't organic, because shouldn't she have been thinking that way all the time? It IS a bridge command exam after all.

She certainly did during the crisis in Disaster. So we know it's in her wheelhouse already, & IMHO that's when they should've recognized her capability to make that command call. She should've gotten her bridge command creds right then, if you ask me, & should've been in uniform the next episode, as a recognition of how she'd become different, especially if such a test is conducted solely by the serving crew anyhow. You'd think the command crew itself would want to think logistically after an event like that & realize that Troi is ON the bridge a lot, & at times might be the one who holds rank in a crisis, so... duh

She probably shouldn't have made that crack at Riker's #1 job at the end, or he might've pushed her through then

 

[Brobdingnag]

Maybe if she had passed that test before Disaster instead of after, she might have made a different choice, that is following Ro's advice and assuming that everyone was dead in engineering which would have resulted in the death of a large part of the crew... After all, the ship comes first, right?