What would have improved Voyager?

[Anwar]

Angel4576 said:

startrekwatcher said:
It is up to the fans to decide how successful they were or weren't.

I think cancellation unequivocally answered that one.

Even if JMS or Ron Moore had made the show from day one it would've been canceled. Moore's BSG is canceled after 4 seasons and until TNG intervened so was Babylon 5. Neither of those acheived the kinds of ratings UPN wanted, and the change in management who was against sci-fi programming would've ended it regardless.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Angel4576 said:

startrekwatcher said:
It is up to the fans to decide how successful they were or weren't.

I think cancellation unequivocally answered that one.

Well I think it is a more complex answer than simply arguing the show was cancelled. Afterall there are good or promising series that are canned while subpar stuff goes on for years and years.

I'd also point out that while ENT had a rough first two seasons the show had a marked improvement in seasons three and four. Sure Coto pretty much guided season four but season three was a lot of their vision and played strongly into Brannon's strengths-high concept sci-fi elements, big spectacle imagery, action and plot-driven storytelling.

I think a large part of ENT's problems were the writing and the characters not resonating with the audience. And even the oft-cited savior Coto couldn't really make the characters come alive so he instead focused on the stories and continued the plot-driven approach.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Hmmm. Rick, Brannon and Jeri haven't worked since Star Trek according to IMDB.

I mean they're all old enough to retire and live off the insane residuals if they weren't enjoying themselves? And if they weren't enjoying themselves, you have to wonder if that was reflected in the product?

 

[Anwar]

IMDB must be wrong, since Braga has worked since ENT ended. He did Threshold and now is on 24.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Oh, sorry. Threshhold. That show is like invisible. Although if we're talking about next season of 24, that could be why he's not listed there yet.

Does this mean that there will be more trek actors produced for 24's cast? Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeexcellent.

 

[Angel4576]

Anwar said:
Even if JMS or Ron Moore had made the show from day one it would've been canceled. Moore's BSG is canceled after 4 seasons and until TNG intervened so was Babylon 5. Neither of those acheived the kinds of ratings UPN wanted, and the change in management who was against sci-fi programming would've ended it regardless.

If JMS had been in charge from the beginning, it wouldn't have lasted a season. After completing B5, TNT messed him around with Crusade. Joe's direction is pretty much you do it his way or you don't do it. Hence he forced them to pull the plug during the first season. He'd have been no different with UPN.

Straczynski also walked away from Jeremiah after its second season due to MGM's meddling, in effect forcing them to cancel it.

Ron Moore? Again, contract or no contract, it's unlikely that he would have stuck with the series with UPN looking over his shoulder. He was given a creative freehand by HBO for Carnivale, and Sci-Fi with nuBSG.

Bottom line, cancellation's not the end of the world if your vision's being screwed into something completely different. Straczynski's stood to that principle on more than one occasion. Moore's never had to. Berman and Braga, plodded on regardless.

I'm happy to take your word for it that they did the best that they could under the circumstances, but to be honest, when the writing's on the wall, which it was with Voyager, its audience shrinking with each passing season, they'd have been better served trying to rescue their reputations, and let someone else drive the franchise into the ground.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You mean like when Deanna crashed the Enterprise D into the side of a planet?

 

[Angel4576]

startrekwatcher said:
Well I think it is a more complex answer than simply arguing the show was cancelled. Afterall there are good or promising series that are canned while subpar stuff goes on for years and years.

I'd also point out that while ENT had a rough first two seasons the show had a marked improvement in seasons three and four. Sure Coto pretty much guided season four but season three was a lot of their vision and played strongly into Brannon's strengths-high concept sci-fi elements, big spectacle imagery, action and plot-driven storytelling.

I think a large part of ENT's problems were the writing and the characters not resonating with the audience. And even the oft-cited savior Coto couldn't really make the characters come alive so he instead focused on the stories and continued the plot-driven approach.

The third and fourth seasons were much better than the first two, but in terms of quality Star Trek, they were far from flawless themselves.

Despite the upswing they were unable to attract back any of the viewers that they'd lost over the course of the first two years, and eventually lost even more.

Cancellation's a harsh yardstick, but ultimately is a fair reflection of fans voting with their feet (or fingers on the remote in this instance).

Shows like Andromeda, Mutant X et al survived for as long as they did because they played to their respect audiences, and although they were pitiful series' in themselves, they did that very well. By the time Voyager, and later Enterprise came along, they already had an inbuilt audience, and could do nothing to maintain its interest. Stories over the first two seasons were relatively simplistic, often recycled, and as you've said, did very little for character development in the long term.

Enterprise was just far too bland for its own good. By the time it realised that, it was far too late.

 

[Kegek]

Angel4576 said:
Shows like Andromeda, Mutant X et al survived for as long as they did because they played to their respect audiences, and although they were pitiful series' in themselves, they did that very well.

Also there's budget to consider. Andromeda was dirt cheap, and that's the reason it's the only non-Star Trek space opera (except the similarly cast strapped Babylon 5) to go the distance for five seasons. That's the problem. Without the magic Star Trek name Voyager probably wouldn't have lasted for seven seasons, and Enterprise for four, but both shows were treading both declining goodwill and the continued expense of making the product.

To make a good space opera on Andromeda's kind of budget you really have to struggle through the mediocrity on hand (the story of Babylon 5) but to be pretty consistent one needs a good writing staff and good actors, and both cost money.

 

[Anwar]

UPN shouldn't have twisted their arms into doing consecutive series like that. They should've waited until DS9 was done, then maybe wait a year or two before doing VOY, and then waited until VOY was done for a few years before ENT.

Sorry to say, but even early 90s Trek wasn't popular enough to have two shows practically on at the same time (DS9 was towards the end of TNG).

 

[Kegek]

That's very true. And Berman didn't want yet another show ontop of DS9. But UPN gave him ultimatum: They'd either make the Star Trek show with him, then without him.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Anwar said:
UPN shouldn't have twisted their arms into doing consecutive series like that. They should've waited until DS9 was done, then maybe wait a year or two before doing VOY, and then waited until VOY was done for a few years before ENT.

Sorry to say, but even early 90s Trek wasn't popular enough to have two shows practically on at the same time (DS9 was towards the end of TNG).

Diminishing returns are still returns.

 

[Anwar]

Maybe so, but at least we'd have gotten something of slightly higher quality, even if it didn't make a ton of cash.

 

[JoeZhang]

Straczynski faced the same problem of network interference when he was producing Crusade for TNT. After initial appeasement he grew weary of their meddling and simply refused to take their 'direction' on board. He stuck to his guns and effectively forced TNT to cancel the show.

So it's all down to him that the series sucked balls? I'd perfer to blame the suits!

 

[Gotham Central]

Kegek said:
That's very true. And Berman didn't want yet another show ontop of DS9. But UPN gave him ultimatum: They'd either make the Star Trek show with him, then without him.

On the one hand I think people have given Berman a pass regarding creative mediocrity. Yes UPN may have intervened but Berman had a big hand in ensuring that Trek never took ANY chaqnces. I recall a story Ron Moore told regarding a DS9 story involving Nog losing a leg in battle. He stated that Berman had a fit that no only would he lose a leg in battle but that they wanted to explore the mental impact of such a loss on the character by not having it immediately replaced. Moore thought the argument was idiotic if only because Nog would get his leg back eventually anyway (this is Star Trek after all).


On the other hand, I have to say that I am glad that UPN forced them to make Voyager. Voyager got all of the piss poor writing and plotting while DS9 was largely given creative freedom because so few people were paying attention. Voyager's larger profile meant that it could suck up all the crap leaving DS9 free to take some real chances. For that Voyager deserves SOME praise. Oddly enought, the opposite seemed to happen to Voyager when focus shifted to Enterprise. Voyager seemed to get worse without constant attention in its last few years.

 

[exodus]

Angel4576 said:
^^ Straczynski faced the same problem of network interference when he was producing Crusade for TNT. After initial appeasement he grew weary of their meddling and simply refused to take their 'direction' on board. He stuck to his guns and effectively forced TNT to cancel the show. He didn't need to leave or violate his contract with them, and as such gained more kudos from B5 fandom for not allowing the direction of the show be dictated by network suits. It also hasn't prevented him from finding more work in both the television and comicbook fields.

Why couldn't Berman/Braga do the same? They didn't need to leave, just refuse to be dictated to and then force them to either replace you, or cancel the show. Either way, you're free from your contract without the threat of legal action.

And let's face it, worst case scenario, they're blackballed by UPN. Whoopy fcuking doo......That would be a real career killer.....Not.

Moore left, and after having a creative hand in Roswell and Carnivale, runs nuBSG. Echevarria and Behr left and came up with The 4400. Piller left and gave us The Dead Zone. There's life after Star Trek and the above have been able to carve their niche. Perhaps Berman/Braga realised that they simply weren't as creative as them and therefore couldn't cut the apron strings to free themselves from Star Trek. Lord knows, if Threshold is anything to go by, that's a fairly safe bet....

Rick Berman has a morgage to pay and a family to support.

I'm sorry but what type of world do some of you people live in that you think anybody can just up and leave a job as if they have no responsabilities to anyone? B&B weren't sitting around all day on their asses eating bon-bons. They have responsabilities to themselves and their families. They have to put food on the table, keep a roof over their heads and the power turned on. What they do is still a job, just like and no different than any other. What they do is work, not fun.

 

[Angel4576]

Hmm, don't know about that. If I don't like my job, and there's little I can change about that situation, I'd find another one. The situation that's been described here around Berman and Braga's working environment, certainly sounds like it was far from a happy one.

Are you seriously suggesting that neither Berman or Braga would have been able to find work elsewhere?

 

[exodus]

Angel4576 said:
Hmm, don't know about that. If I don't like my job, and there's little I can change about that situation, I'd find another one. The situation that's been described here around Berman and Braga's working environment, certainly sounds like it was far from a happy one.

Are you seriously suggesting that neither Berman or Braga would have been able to find work elsewhere?

Are you married with a morgage to pay?

Do you really honestly beileve that there is no competition within the job market and that people can leave jobs and be guaranteed one almost instantly?

 

[Angel4576]

exodus said:

Angel4576 said:
Hmm, don't know about that. If I don't like my job, and there's little I can change about that situation, I'd find another one. The situation that's been described here around Berman and Braga's working environment, certainly sounds like it was far from a happy one.

Are you seriously suggesting that neither Berman or Braga would have been able to find work elsewhere?

Are you married with a morgage to pay?

Do you really honestly beileve that there is no competition within the job market and that people can leave jobs and be guaranteed one almost instantly?

Yes, and yes.

Piller, Behr, Echevarria, Moore, all managed to move seamlessly from Trek to other projects. How come Berman and Braga couldn't?

They knew Voyager was coming to an end, they had plenty of time.

 

[exodus]

Angel4576 said:

exodus said:

Angel4576 said:
Hmm, don't know about that. If I don't like my job, and there's little I can change about that situation, I'd find another one. The situation that's been described here around Berman and Braga's working environment, certainly sounds like it was far from a happy one.

Are you seriously suggesting that neither Berman or Braga would have been able to find work elsewhere?

Are you married with a morgage to pay?

Do you really honestly beileve that there is no competition within the job market and that people can leave jobs and be guaranteed one almost instantly?

Yes, and yes.

Piller, Behr, Echevarria, Moore, all managed to move seamlessly from Trek to other projects. How come Berman and Braga couldn't?

They knew Voyager was coming to an end, they had plenty of time.

As someone already explained, they were under contract. Most of the others you named only left after their contract was up or were released from it.

Paramount was paying B&B well, why should they leave? They aren't working to please you or I, they work to get paid and make ends meet. Who gives a shit if some snot nosed Trek fan a million miles away has issues with the show, why should they? Fans have no clue what it takes to run a TV program or how many nights both those men stayed up writing and doing the shows budget so the families they left waiting at home could eat. It's selfish to think they owe us something and should abandon their jobs just to please us. That's not realistic and that's not how the real world works.