What would have improved Voyager?

[Guy Gardener]

Anwar said:
Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that VOY could draw power from Nebula matter and energies given off by stars? That's standard sci-fi power-generation stuff.

If you're talking about The Cloud, or that time with the selenium when they busted up that shuttle... That was a mining operation, sure they used something akin to a buzzscoop ramjet to get what they needed, but it was a proccess a little more difficult than "power" just being ambiantly collected from general particulate matter and energy.

Better than Dallas, worse than Mana.

And in so far as forgiving people for trying to kill and imprison you? Or tolerating traitors to your political system? The Irish and English get along "fine" these days and it only took 900 years for it to all lull into the current lack of exceptional slaughter.

 

[TeutonicNights]

But if they can just tap the energy of a star, why would they need to conserve energy in the first place? We've seen other ships operate for months without having the need for saving energy.
Of course there are 1000 trexplanations for anything, and Ron Moore knows that very well (and says so in the interview). But he's kinda right, having adventures in the holodeck and having to conserve replicator power/eat weird stuff in the galley doesn't really fit together.
*Especially* when they could just tap a star and replicate a month's worth of premium food.

If B&B really thought "well, we have replicators and we can get energy everywhere off-screen, so having supply issues would be inconceivable," then why
- would they have problems with replicator energy? The couple from TNG "the survivors" had a household fusion reactor and they supposedly could power the replicator Picard handed them.
- did they not invent a technobabble reason to make them needy? they had 1000 technobabble solutions to save the day.

The answer is: B&B didn't want that and Moore sees this as wasted potential, and so do I.

 

[exodus]

TeutonicNights said:
But if they can just tap the energy of a star, why would they need to conserve energy in the first place? We've seen other ships operate for months without having the need for saving energy.
Of course there are 1000 trexplanations for anything, and Ron Moore knows that very well (and says so in the interview). But he's kinda right, having adventures in the holodeck and having to conserve replicator power/eat weird stuff in the galley doesn't really fit together.
*Especially* when they could just tap a star and replicate a month's worth of premium food.

If B&B really thought "well, we have replicators and we can get energy everywhere off-screen, so having supply issues would be inconceivable," then why
- would they have problems with replicator energy? The couple from TNG "the survivors" had a household fusion reactor and they supposedly could power the replicator Picard handed them.
- did they not invent a technobabble reason to make them needy? they had 1000 technobabble solutions to save the day.

The answer is: B&B didn't want that and Moore sees this as wasted potential, and so do I.

Voyager would need a power supply that would last for years, not months. There is no guarantee that they'd find the same type of energy every time, which is why during the first seasons they kept looking for new sources.

Ron Moore is an idiot. He never takes into account stress. Lost and far away from home in hostile uncharted spece is stressful. Having to worry about being under attack by every unknown species in the Delta Q. is equal to what troops in Iraq are facing now. The holodecks are the equavilant of Bob Hope and the USO going to entertain them. It's one of the few chances at stress relief they get. Without it, the higher percentage of mental stress disorder. The holodecks are required because they help keep the crew sane.

Besides, you shouldn't have supply issues after the first few years anyway. You'd be very bad at survival if you still can't figure out a plan to power the ship & feed your crew after 2 years.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Deuterium is a Hydrogen isotope. Lots of Hydrogen everywhere. Just have to build a refinery to jigger Hydrogen into useful deuterium.

 

[misskim86]

To be honest, every time we see a new episode and the ship is 100% working and clean etc it's a reset button

 

[Eminence]

^^Why? Other Federation ships in the AQ got in space battles and appeared the same way in the next episode. Voyager had the same technology at their disposal, so that argument doesn't wash. I suppose one could make the case that they didn't have the same external resources, and yes, Voyager didn't have any Starbases nearby to fuel up...BUT, like Exodus said, after a few years, you'd have gotten the survival part down well enough to be prepared for such matters. I'm sure Voyager ran across a few friendly ports where they could restock/salvage/barter and meet their needs.

The show really wasn't meant to be like nuBSG--for one, the Federation's technology exceeds that of the Colonial's, hence Voyager's ability to look and fare better than Galactica--it's about maintaining one's Federation values in less than friendly territories. That's why Voyager had the look and feel of a Federation ship.

 

[exodus]

^Actually, Voyager didn't even need to bother with ports to make repairs. The ship could land. They even showed it being repaired on the surface of a planet once.


They also explained in "Innocence" that Voyager was self reliant up to a point. Voyager is a deep space exploration/scouting vessel. It's was designed to be faster, stronger & self reliant because it designed to inter areas of space where it would get little or no support from other ships. It's first mission was into the Badlands where other Starfleet ships couldn't go. The one we saw on DS9 went into Romulan space-A.K.A. deep and potentally hostile territory.

 

[Eminence]

^^Well I meant more for bartering for supplies etc, but you're right; they could make many of the repairs they needed. People forget that this is a FEDERATION ship, a STAR TREK show, and one of the premises of Star Trek is that humanity has evolved by such leaps and bounds technologically that many material concerns have been overcome or solved. It ain't like they need to mine for oil to run their car; the Federation had developed renewable energy technology. So, whatever adjustments they might have had to make now that they were away from the Federation, would still have to be coupled with the fact they were still a Federation vessel with all of the Federation's technology at their disposal.

 

[exodus]

Eminence said:
^^Well I meant more for bartering for supplies etc, but you're right; they could make many of the repairs they needed. People forget that this is a FEDERATION ship, a STAR TREK show, and one of the premises of Star Trek is that humanity has evolved by such leaps and bounds technologically that many material concerns have been overcome or solved. It ain't like they need to mine for oil to run their car; the Federation had developed renewable energy technology. So, whatever adjustments they might have had to make now that they were away from the Federation, would still have to be coupled with the fact they were still a Federation vessel with all of the Federation's technology at their disposal.

Exactly.

Just like there was never going to be any major conflict between the Maquis crew & the Starfleet one. They're both citizens of the Federation. We don't fight our own, that was all explained in DS9's "The Maquis pt.1&2". The fight was with the Cardassians because the Central Government was supplying weapons to both sides. It started in DS9's Circle Trilogy .

The Cardassian Central Command was secretly supplying the Bajorians living the the Demiliterized Zone with weapons. They did it to give them an excuse to supply Cardassian citizens with weapons to fight and harrass the Federation citizens living there too. When the Federation citizens(Maquis) fought back, it finally gave Cardassia a reason to eliminate those people living on their side of the Zone. The Cardies were always the enemy of the Maquis not the Federation.

 

[Jonesy]

arwag said:
what would have improved it for you?

Sticking to the premise - rigidly.

Every other good/worthy/valid point made in this thread - at least to me - branches out directly from this.

The decision to break from the premise was the studio's decision (as Michael Piller said in an interview) and not the production team's.


There was such a huge amount of conflict and drama and excitement to mine from a premise as the one that Voyager launched with.

 

[Eminence]

Jonesy said:

arwag said:
what would have improved it for you?

Sticking to the premise - rigidly.

Every other good/worthy/valid point made in this thread - at least to me - branches out directly from this.

The decision to break from the premise was the studio's decision (as Michael Piller said in an interview) and not the production team's.


There was such a huge amount of conflict and drama and excitement to mine from a premise as the one that Voyager launched with.

How exactly was the premise abandoned? As far as I remember, the show was about a Starfleet crew trying to make their way back home from the DQ in the beginning of the series, all the way to the end.

 

[TeutonicNights]

To be fair, Moore is obviously pissed; it's a long interview and he fires in several directions here.

I don't really think he was stressing a problem in conceivability, just that he believes those matters should be at the core of the series, shaping it from start to finish.
Anything else, to him, is just squandering potential.

Moore wants to fully exploit that premise, he wants it all figured out and he wants development while Braga wants something more TNG, more static and he saves those supply issues for use as plot devices from time to time at most, rather than it being a constant challenge to the crew.

Braga would say (like you) the supply issues would be resolved by year two anyway, while Moore maybe would look for a way to keep this a lasting problem or even make them lose their gel-packs or some other important thing even later in the series.

All in all, I always was cool with Voyager, mainly because I got my beloved DS9 and now it was those peoples' turn that wanted something different. It wasn't what Moore or Me or some other people wanted, but seeing how many fans it still has, it seems it delivered in some way.

But again, conceivability was not Moore's main issue. He knows about what the 24th century tech can do, but it's also true there would have been a way to make supply issues a big part of the series- but that wasn't what B&B wanted.

But I must say if only half of what Moore tells about the apathy and negativity he noticed among the staff is actually true, that's really sad.

 

[donners22]

TeutonicNights said:

Of course there are 1000 trexplanations for anything, and Ron Moore knows that very well (and says so in the interview). But he's kinda right, having adventures in the holodeck and having to conserve replicator power/eat weird stuff in the galley doesn't really fit together.

Not sure if this is mentioned in the interview (that may be the explanation you refer to), but it was established very early that the holodeck had independent, incompatible power suppy to the rest of the ship. Then promptly contradicted a few episodes later when power problems caused the holodeck to shut down...

 

[misskim86]

The premise would be that the ship had to survive. Note SURVIVE, not go on holo deck adventures when they have replicator rations.

Voyager as a deep space exploration ship is ok but 70000 light years is more than "deep space" it's way away from the federation, that was the whole premise of the show.

Seriously Voyager could might aswell have been about the Enterprise C

 

[Guy Gardener]

donners22 said:

TeutonicNights said:

Of course there are 1000 trexplanations for anything, and Ron Moore knows that very well (and says so in the interview). But he's kinda right, having adventures in the holodeck and having to conserve replicator power/eat weird stuff in the galley doesn't really fit together.

Not sure if this is mentioned in the interview (that may be the explanation you refer to), but it was established very early that the holodeck had independent, incompatible power suppy to the rest of the ship. Then promptly contradicted a few episodes later when power problems caused the holodeck to shut down...

Yes, they said that in the beginning, and then contradicted it later on to my guffaw.

The technology and how they used it changed to meet the needs of their environment.

 

[Anwar]

And quit blaming B&B for everything, most of these big decisions were made for them by UPN. Heck, Braga wanted to get rid of the replicators for good and have "Year of Hell" last for a whole year.

 

[Jonesy]

Eminence said:

Jonesy said:

arwag said:
what would have improved it for you?

Sticking to the premise - rigidly.

Every other good/worthy/valid point made in this thread - at least to me - branches out directly from this.

The decision to break from the premise was the studio's decision (as Michael Piller said in an interview) and not the production team's.


There was such a huge amount of conflict and drama and excitement to mine from a premise as the one that Voyager launched with.

How exactly was the premise abandoned? As far as I remember, the show was about a Starfleet crew trying to make their way back home from the DQ in the beginning of the series, all the way to the end.

This is an entire can of worms that has already kind of been opened to one degree or another in this thread. The very short version is that the network wanted the Maquis and Starfleet crew to be lovey-dovey as quickly as possible (which by my estimation was pretty much the episode following the pilot) thereby removing any of the very real conflict that would arise by two crews trying to co-exist on one ship.

 

[Brennyren]

exodus said:

Eminence said:
^^Well I meant more for bartering for supplies etc, but you're right; they could make many of the repairs they needed. People forget that this is a FEDERATION ship, a STAR TREK show, and one of the premises of Star Trek is that humanity has evolved by such leaps and bounds technologically that many material concerns have been overcome or solved. It ain't like they need to mine for oil to run their car; the Federation had developed renewable energy technology. So, whatever adjustments they might have had to make now that they were away from the Federation, would still have to be coupled with the fact they were still a Federation vessel with all of the Federation's technology at their disposal.

Exactly.

Just like there was never going to be any major conflict between the Maquis crew & the Starfleet one. They're both citizens of the Federation. We don't fight our own, that was all explained in DS9's "The Maquis pt.1&2". The fight was with the Cardassians because the Central Government was supplying weapons to both sides. It started in DS9's Circle Trilogy .

The Cardassian Central Command was secretly supplying the Bajorians living the the Demiliterized Zone with weapons. They did it to give them an excuse to supply Cardassian citizens with weapons to fight and harrass the Federation citizens living there too. When the Federation citizens(Maquis) fought back, it finally gave Cardassia a reason to eliminate those people living on their side of the Zone. The Cardies were always the enemy of the Maquis not the Federation.

This is how I see it: you can justify the lack of conflict and the lack of any real desperation on Voyager any way you like, but at the end of the day, the question has to be: if there is no conflict amongst the crew, if there is no desperation in Voyager's situation, then what, exactly, is it that distinguishes VOY from every other Star Trek series? And the answer, I think, is "not much."

To amplify: What is the point of combining Maquis and Starfleet crews if (except, of course, for the annual "Maquis episode") everybody gets along just fine from the get-go? Might as well make it an all-Starfleet crew in that case. And what is the point of stranding Voyager away from its chain of command and its supply lines if a) being away from the chain of command isn't going to change the way the ship is run (they're still true-blue Starfleet) and b) the crew is not going to have to find any alternate sources of supplies? Might as well leave them in the Alpha Quadrant.

What is the point of introducing differences in the premise if they're not going to have any effect in the execution? Again, I say: not much. Everything that could and should have made VOY daring and unique was frittered away in favor of everything that made it safe and familiar -- and that's a real shame.

 

[Ethros]

Personally I just find the concept of the "Maquis" stupid to begin with, in that they're supposed to be there to create such drama...
VOY begins in about mid 2371... the Maquis only formed in late 2370, so they hadn't even been around for a single year anyway. And before that all these supposed "badasses" in the Maquis were all just nice, happy normal Federation citizens, being as patriotic as anyone to the UFP.
So by about mid-Season 2 they'd all been aboard Voyager longer than they had been in the Maquis anyway!

They're called terrorists, but its hardy like they're bloody Al-Queda or whatever. Christ, most people in the Maquis seemingly used to be in Starfleet anyway, so it's not like coming aboard Voyager would be that much of a change for them.

If you wanted some real drama, instead of the crew being made up of Starfleet-Maquis (which basically translates as Starfleet-Starfleet, or at the least Starfleet-Federation civilians) it should have been something like Starfleet-Cardassians, or Starfleet-Roumulans

 

[Ezri]

Hey, look ... Voyager came from the minds of UPN.