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What would Ground WarFare look like in the 24th Century and beyond?

Kamen Rider Blade

Vice Admiral
Admiral
We only got glimpses of some ground warfare, but never mobilizing a large amount of troops and only a few eps like the Siege of AR-558.

We didn't get to see any mechanized vehicles or even robots.

We didn't get to see what Orbital Fire Support would look like =D.

Star Trek: Enterprise did a better portrayal with the MACO's, but that time frame was set far earlier than the 24th century.

If StarFleet were to have a ground component like the Marines or Army equivalent, how would they deploy, occupy, and hold territory.

What kinda support StarShips and land vehicles would they have access to?

Would we finally get giant bi-pedal robots carrying big weapons like Gundam?
 
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The one thing that never made sense to me in futuristic science fiction was the need for conventional ground engagements. Star Wars, in particular, felt especially strange in this regard, using fantastical ground devices to wage kinetic warfare, yet employing Napoleonic siege tactics to persecute it. It's anachronistic. In Trek, all the known space powers have the ability to use super-advanced tech to purge a planet's surface of infantry, artillery and armor of any kind, from targeted phaser strikes on localized shields to beaming adversaries out of an AOO, all the way up to a full-on scorched-earth planetary bombardment with quantum torpedoes. Star Wars is particularly 2-dimensional in its thinking with "planetary blockades" that only cover a tiny arc-second of space over a planet. A blockade runner could easily just pop in out of hyperspace on the far side of the planet (which they never do) and quickly deep-dive into the atmosphere to achieve its goals. At least, thankfully, Trek doesn't really get into blockades all that much, and if they do, the entire planet is covered with a shield or a vast network of mines and/or satellites (or all of the above) in an effort to make it at least a little more believable. Let's remove the medieval siege tactics from science fiction once and for all and finally show the audience what a futuristic starship can really do to an occupying planetside force.
 
I say we take off, and nuke the entire site from orbit."

It's the only way to be sure.
Not everybody is about pillaging and destruction.


The one thing that never made sense to me in futuristic science fiction was the need for conventional ground engagements. Star Wars, in particular, felt especially strange in this regard, using fantastical ground devices to wage kinetic warfare, yet employing Napoleonic siege tactics to persecute it. It's anachronistic. In Trek, all the known space powers have the ability to use super-advanced tech to purge a planet's surface of infantry, artillery and armor of any kind, from targeted phaser strikes on localized shields to beaming adversaries out of an AOO, all the way up to a full-on scorched-earth planetary bombardment with quantum torpedoes. Star Wars is particularly 2-dimensional in its thinking with "planetary blockades" that only cover a tiny arc-second of space over a planet. A blockade runner could easily just pop in out of hyperspace on the far side of the planet (which they never do) and quickly deep-dive into the atmosphere to achieve its goals. At least, thankfully, Trek doesn't really get into blockades all that much, and if they do, the entire planet is covered with a shield or a vast network of mines and/or satellites (or all of the above) in an effort to make it at least a little more believable. Let's remove the medieval siege tactics from science fiction once and for all and finally show the audience what a futuristic starship can really do to an occupying planetside force.
And as great as StarShips are, you still need to occupy territorial facilities with ground troops to truly take over land territory.

Most forces aren't into "Scored Earth" policies, they want to take over what already exists, not "Glass a Planet".

If a enemy takes over blank building, you can't honestly say you control the building until you clear the enemies out of it.

Same with land facilities and large swaths of terrain.

If the enemy is just hiding out and attacking you randomly, it just turns into guerilla warfare, despite Air/Space superiority.

Ergo the need to stop the enemy forces with minimal property destruction.

If you didn't care or didn't have the ability to easily capture the enemy on a individual level, then you resort to bombardment to flush them out.
 
personal shields, similar to the force-field space suits from TAS. Lots of drone aerial firepower. Assume no use of AI's on the ground due to some ethical and/or practical concerns. Phasers dont seem to be able to continuously fire for long periods, so bursts of supressing fire in randomized patterns. Plenty of cqb and hand to hand due to personal shields, sensor dampening. The entire thing would be somewhat horrific. Basically Dune battles.
 
Star Trek ground war, as apposed to small scale ground conflicts, is one of my favorite topics, in part because it is rare and it is iffy whether or not it should exist.

I have two mindsets on the kind of technology they would have. There's the thematic stated tech and then there is extrapolated tech.

Thematically they should have personal shields, maybe of a sort which is wearable, and definitely a type of deployable shield, photon grenade launchers and various phaser weapons. We've also seen transporter inhibitors. There's also a "hopper" which must be some sort of shuttle, and maybe Argo style cars. There has also been mention of Cardassian and maybe Klingon ground vehicles, too. Basically just a little more than what we see normal security personnel carry.

There are also combat drones, and I imagine we would see people acting as squad leaders of drone squads, or even larger groupings.

For space support we've seen it in TOS and TNG. The 1701 stunned a whole block from orbit. The 1701-D could drill a hold miles into a planet. The ships are so strong it's easy to imagine a shuttle could do something similar from so high up no man portable weapon would reach. Combined with extraordinary sensors and transporters it throws into doubt the use of ground personnel except in very specific targeted uses, delivered as needed, and used only to hold positions. It's the opposite of The of Siege AR-558 where they held a cave in order to hold the planet, and for no reason neither side's didn't transporter or vaporize the opposition.

When the Romulans invaded Vulcan they expected to hold the whole planet with just a few thousand soldiers, and no warships, only, presumably unarmed Vulcan transports. The only way they could work is if they were counting on passive acceptance by the Vulcans, and the infantry were to setup a threat against the Vulcan population if the Federation should counter invade, or the plan was targeted infantry use through transporters.

Then there is extrapolated stuff. Obviously power armor, but would it be a lightly powered suit to carry a bit of armor and a nice shield, or would it be a wearable shuttle with a mini-warp core, transporters, and a sensor suite strong enough to count as a weapon on its own? With a suit like that you could fly from Earth's moon to Earth, and beam yourself around the surface as needed, as long as transporter scramblers aren't present to turn you into a pile of burning goo. In either case, falling from orbit to ground, sans shuttle, sans transporter, would be an obvious way to get down to a planet's surface in the face of non-weaponry based defense. That is, unless they have a planetary shield, then you need a siege ship, or siege fleet. Maybe a ship which can land like Voyager if space and surface are contested even after the shield is down.

How about tanks? They would basically be shuttles with total focus on combat, rather than transport, and emphasis on close to surface movement. But if they carry a runabout's warp core, or better, then they would also be warp capable to a low level and allow for self insertion into a solar system from just outside, and landing on any surface in the system would be no issue.

The problem is, any starships should be able to deal with these kind of assets with great ease unless there are countermeasure systems or natural impediments we don't know.
 
personal shields, similar to the force-field space suits from TAS. Lots of drone aerial firepower. Assume no use of AI's on the ground due to some ethical and/or practical concerns. Phasers dont seem to be able to continuously fire for long periods, so bursts of supressing fire in randomized patterns. Plenty of cqb and hand to hand due to personal shields, sensor dampening. The entire thing would be somewhat horrific. Basically Dune battles.
I can see a "SW: Attack of the Clones" style where you have hordes of Robots on your side to "Guard Facilities", function as sentries, secure areas.

What's quicker & cheaper to deploy and then Androids with decent intelligence, like "Data" level intelligence, minus the sentience.
 
I can see a "SW: Attack of the Clones" style where you have hordes of Robots on your side to "Guard Facilities", function as sentries, secure areas.

What's quicker & cheaper to deploy and then Androids with decent intelligence, like "Data" level intelligence, minus the sentience.
Mars should cure them of the idea, and every other time an AI has went rogue.
 
I can see a "SW: Attack of the Clones" style where you have hordes of Robots on your side to "Guard Facilities", function as sentries, secure areas.

What's quicker & cheaper to deploy and then Androids with decent intelligence, like "Data" level intelligence, minus the sentience.
This works for me. A massive fleet of weaponized autonomous drones could probably hold a planet without much fuss. But as XCV330 says, it could go sideways very quickly if someone figures out how to hack them. They would really need to be tamper-proof and not go all Skynet on every living thing in proximity. That would defeat the whole purpose.
 
Thematically they should have personal shields, maybe of a sort which is wearable, and definitely a type of deployable shield, photon grenade launchers and various phaser weapons. We've also seen transporter inhibitors.
I concur, basic body suits should be have contoured flexible Deflector Shield Emitters built into the fabric.

Front/Back Belt Buckles can each house a Bubble/Ovalid shield Emitters for a secondary layer on top of the contour shielding with alternating Off-Line "Fast Charge" for the Shield Emitter's Energy Capacitors.
This Dual Shield congif would allow you to rotate from Front/Back Belt Buckle shields and quickly recharge your shields back to 100% from your advanced Battery pack.

I think photon grenade launchers could be better served by photon mortars or photon bullets.
But Matter/Anti-Matter in a tiny projectile traveling at those speeds could bring long range amazing destructive capabilities on top of mixing it with the TR-116 Transporter Rifle and ExoGraphic targeting scope that can see through walls.

There's also a "hopper" which must be some sort of shuttle, and maybe Argo style cars. There has also been mention of Cardassian and maybe Klingon ground vehicles, too. Basically just a little more than what we see normal security personnel carry.
Skimmers seem to be Anti-Grav platforms for moving only a few meters above terrain
Hoppers seem to be Shuttles that are only rated for in Atmosphere flight
Automobiles will be the same, just powered by 24th century batteries with incredible range.
Multi-Pedal Robots that walk on legs of some form should be more common given Mini Fusion reactors and large batteries are available.

There are also combat drones, and I imagine we would see people acting as squad leaders of drone squads, or even larger groupings.
I can imagine each human being in control of up to 12 unit Android Squad and directing them locally from a Command & Control room or being out in the field with them and using them to secure a facility or to investigate a facility.

For space support we've seen it in TOS and TNG. The 1701 stunned a whole block from orbit. The 1701-D could drill a hold miles into a planet. The ships are so strong it's easy to imagine a shuttle could do something similar from so high up no man portable weapon would reach. Combined with extraordinary sensors and transporters it throws into doubt the use of ground personnel except in very specific targeted uses, delivered as needed, and used only to hold positions. It's the opposite of The of Siege AR-558 where they held a cave in order to hold the planet, and for no reason neither side's didn't transporter or vaporize the opposition.
During the Seige of AR-558, both sides used Transporter Jammers & Sensor Jammers. It was mentioned in the dialogue, everything reverted back to primitive ground warfare since StarFleet wanted the Communication Relay and needed time to break through the computer security.

The Dominion wanted that relay back, and were willing to fight a long entrenched ground combat for it.

Space/Air superiority traded back & forth, so it wasn't a guarantee in that instance.

I can see that being normal, where every soldier and unit has their own "Transporter Jammer" and facilities have built in "Transporter Jammers" or lined with materials that inherently block "Transporter Signals".

Same with Sensor Jammers everywhere along with Long Range Communication Jammers.

When the Romulans invaded Vulcan they expected to hold the whole planet with just a few thousand soldiers, and no warships, only, presumably unarmed Vulcan transports. The only way they could work is if they were counting on passive acceptance by the Vulcans, and the infantry were to setup a threat against the Vulcan population if the Federation should counter invade, or the plan was targeted infantry use through transporters.
I have no idea how their plan was going to work with so few soldiers.

Then there is extrapolated stuff. Obviously power armor, but would it be a lightly powered suit to carry a bit of armor and a nice shield, or would it be a wearable shuttle with a mini-warp core, transporters, and a sensor suite strong enough to count as a weapon on its own? With a suit like that you could fly from Earth's moon to Earth, and beam yourself around the surface as needed, as long as transporter scramblers aren't present to turn you into a pile of burning goo. In either case, falling from orbit to ground, sans shuttle, sans transporter, would be an obvious way to get down to a planet's surface in the face of non-weaponry based defense. That is, unless they have a planetary shield, then you need a siege ship, or siege fleet. Maybe a ship which can land like Voyager if space and surface are contested even after the shield is down.
I concur, Power Armor like "Iron-Man" but more advanced.
I can see various sized BiPedal/Bi-Brachial Robots.

You don't neeed "Warp Cores", just mini Fusion Reactors + Good Batteries.

"Warp Cores" are already a night mare to maintain / deal with in the heat of battle, go with older more proven tech that can be minitaurized even further and made Uber Reliable.

How about tanks? They would basically be shuttles with total focus on combat, rather than transport, and emphasis on close to surface movement. But if they carry a runabout's warp core, or better, then they would also be warp capable to a low level and allow for self insertion into a solar system from just outside, and landing on any surface in the system would be no issue.

The problem is, any starships should be able to deal with these kind of assets with great ease unless there are countermeasure systems or natural impediments we don't know.
I concur, any platform on land powerful enough to take the blast of StarShips would have Anti-Orbital level weaponry. Defending the area and probably also have Space Superiority with friendly/allied StarShips in orbit protecting the sky.

I don't see "Tanks" or traditional "Ground Vehicles" being that useful, their silohuette from Space/Sky is too big. You need something with a strange targeting silohoute, almost Humanoid where you appear as a wierd rectangle to them that's super thin.

That's why I'm a proponent of BiPedal/BiBrachial robots, odd targeting Silohuettes for any weapons in space, intimidating to ground forces, can carry lots of Offense/Defense, allows great Field of View, and very flexible in terms of functionality.
 
Mars should cure them of the idea, and every other time an AI has went rogue.
After StarFleet learns about "Admiral Oh" from Riker and her betrayal along with the "Zhat Vash" and what they did to bypass CyberSecurity to cause that issue on mars, I think they'll change their mind about people and increase "Cyber Security" along with vetting of people including using multiple random Telepaths to deep scan all StarFleet personnel for loyalty to the UFP.
 
This works for me. A massive fleet of weaponized autonomous drones could probably hold a planet without much fuss. But as XCV330 says, it could go sideways very quickly if someone figures out how to hack them. They would really need to be tamper-proof and not go all Skynet on every living thing in proximity. That would defeat the whole purpose.
Everything depends on their CyberSecurity Defense layers and how you input commands along with update them. Once you work through "History" about all the things that were able to "Co-Op" Data and find ways to fix those "Weak Points", it stands to reason that having them as security makes ALOT of sense.

Imagine every place on the planet having security at every corner, you couldn't walk a corner without running into security Androids.

I'd feel so safe.
 
I'm not a big fan of Starfleet normally having access to division-level infantry or combined arms units as them de facto lacking this capacity would be the easiest way to reconcile the "Starfleet isn't a military" rationale*.

What I do think they have de jure are various "special operations" units (akin to the SEALs/Delta/Royal Marine Commandos, Seebees/REDHORSE (in fact the AR-558 unit is probably one or both of these), Force Recon/ISA and even Green Berets) deployed on major starships and most starbases. EVA/Zero G/Spacebourne troops running the spectrum between ODSTs through SPARTANs or even something like the Iron Man armour (classed as a EVA Rescue/Extraction Suit) are moderately plausible IMO.

Basically, a combination of "do more with less" and emphasing "tactical" rather than "militaristic".

NB: I'm not disputing that such forces might be mobilisable but IMO they would be legally akin to calling up the National Guard or Reserve or transferring the Coast Guard during wartime rather than being standing forward deployed units.
 
Herbert's Dune did a good job portraying future warfare and general manslaughter as extremely ritualized: use of powerful weapons was a major religious taboo, apparently because such use would have resulted in the End of Everything soon enough.

I could easily see the Republic of SW similarly set in its ways: if your enemy amasses an amphibious attack force on an island one simple nuclear artillery lob from your beach, you are not allowed to fire that nuke at them, because it's Wrong. After all, the Republic would have thousands of years of history to prove that it really is Wrong, and that losing for being decent in this respect is Right and ultimately better for you. Ditto with, say, Asimov's Empire.

But the Feds and some of their opponents are whippersnappers who haven't learned a thing yet. It would make sense for them to use powerful weapons instead of sending envoys with lightsabers to sort it out. Yet they still don't...

...Or do they? We never see a "real" ground fight - perhaps this is for a good reason?

Even in the abortive fightlets we witness, we do see that some post-Napoleonic moves are out of the question: air mobility is contested by mere ground troops (hoppers get shot down), transporter leapfrog isn't practiced (jamming or blocking is often mentioned as an issue, even if not in this context), and orbital supremacy is difficult to establish so space support of any kind suffers or is absent (and you'd expect a ground fight to be balanced the same way as the orbital fight in all those situations where the fighters arrived at the location from space in the first place, so impasses are plausible).

Now, none of that would be a problem if one merely killed the opponent instead of fighting him. Trek has plenty of weapons for the purpose, including ones that don't harm property (just ramp up stun and you can make everybody dead while still dressed in clean and intact clothes in nice buildings where every appliance works, say). But if everybody won wars, the galaxy probably would be an unhappy place, not to mention an empty one. Perhaps even the young races do learn to fight clean, that is, to fight small, all on their own?

Or perhaps there's always a Q or a Gary Seven to clandestinely make a WMD-based strategy backfire so badly that the youngsters necessarily learn?

And as great as StarShips are, you still need to occupy territorial facilities with ground troops to truly take over land territory.

Strongly disagreed. Ground troops are what prevents the occupier from achieving any sort of takeover.

Taking over a planet from space is practical: the planet is yours and can't do anything about it. But the moment you deploy a Stormtrooper on the surface, the poor sap becomes a target, motivates local resistance at all levels, inevitably escalates it so that the resisters grow in numbers and competence, and necessarily ends with the sap dead and the locals beyond your control (either a zillion of them are dead from your futile attempts at retaliation, or they all secretly rebel and sabotage, or then you just run with your severed tail tucked in your pocket).

Stay in orbit and none of this will happen. We have little evidence of anti-starship cannon of any potency, and in any case those are things you can destroy, and will have to destroy even if you then plan on sacrificing your Stormtroopers in your quest to lose the planet. The locals will have nothing at all to rebel against. And as long as you don't need to threaten them for self-protection and thus establish your weakness, you can very effectively threaten them for gain.

The classic: an invading army arrives, and drops futuro-leaflets (say, holographic heralds) stating "In case you didn't notice, you all have been infected with a disease that will kill you quite gruesomely starting in 96 hours. Antidote is available at designated stations, for the small fee of total cooperation. The thing is, attempts at replication or other faking will result in a poison worse than the original disease. Oh, and the antidote is time- and region-coded, too, and a dozen other things you probably will try to find out, being stupid and all. Just yield. Or die, but the death won't be quick." and then turning, not into a holographic image of the patriotic flag of your exalted empire that the locals could hate, but merely into nothing at all.

In short, the Dominion got it right. If you need to occupy, you do it with a force that is never there, and thus never vulnerable. (Being invisible helps with that a lot, especially with the part where one can't tell whether you are there or not.)

Sure, mass suicide is an option. But we know humans never volunteer for that ITRW, and Trek folks are all humans. Any attempt at sabotaging would be tantamount to mass suicide, and we know how human resistance works, too: through hate-driven infighting. When you yourself aren't in but out, not human but simply the triumphant force, you can't be resisted.

Few of the regular Trek players are there yet. But the Dominion supposedly is - this in practice visible through the stated fact (doubt certainly permitted) that it has not had to resort to war for thousands of years. The Dominion is old; whether the associated strategy is the result or the cause, isn't all that relevant to either the winner or the losers.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Strongly disagreed. Ground troops are what prevents the occupier from achieving any sort of takeover.

Taking over a planet from space is practical: the planet is yours and can't do anything about it. But the moment you deploy a Stormtrooper on the surface, the poor sap becomes a target, motivates local resistance at all levels, inevitably escalates it so that the resisters grow in numbers and competence, and necessarily ends with the sap dead and the locals beyond your control (either a zillion of them are dead from your futile attempts at retaliation, or they all secretly rebel and sabotage, or then you just run with your severed tail tucked in your pocket).

Stay in orbit and none of this will happen. We have little evidence of anti-starship cannon of any potency, and in any case those are things you can destroy, and will have to destroy even if you then plan on sacrificing your Stormtroopers in your quest to lose the planet. The locals will have nothing at all to rebel against. And as long as you don't need to threaten them for self-protection and thus establish your weakness, you can very effectively threaten them for gain.

The classic: an invading army arrives, and drops futuro-leaflets (say, holographic heralds) stating "In case you didn't notice, you all have been infected with a disease that will kill you quite gruesomely starting in 96 hours. Antidote is available at designated stations, for the small fee of total cooperation. The thing is, attempts at replication or other faking will result in a poison worse than the original disease. Oh, and the antidote is time- and region-coded, too, and a dozen other things you probably will try to find out, being stupid and all. Just yield. Or die, but the death won't be quick." and then turning, not into a holographic image of the patriotic flag of your exalted empire that the locals could hate, but merely into nothing at all.

In short, the Dominion got it right. If you need to occupy, you do it with a force that is never there, and thus never vulnerable. (Being invisible helps with that a lot, especially with the part where one can't tell whether you are there or not.)

Sure, mass suicide is an option. But we know humans never volunteer for that ITRW, and Trek folks are all humans. Any attempt at sabotaging would be tantamount to mass suicide, and we know how human resistance works, too: through hate-driven infighting. When you yourself aren't in but out, not human but simply the triumphant force, you can't be resisted.

Few of the regular Trek players are there yet. But the Dominion supposedly is - this in practice visible through the stated fact (doubt certainly permitted) that it has not had to resort to war for thousands of years. The Dominion is old; whether the associated strategy is the result or the cause, isn't all that relevant to either the winner or the losers.

Timo Saloniemi
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on how to get things done when it comes down to taking over territory. I don't see your way as any real victory.
 
I guess it's a matter of economy, too. If your definition of victory requires the presence of troops, those are an expense for as long as they are a presence. A threat costs nothing to maintain.

Yet what is victory? If you want just the planet for yourself, then by definition you need to get rid of the natives, with mass murder or deportation schemes of varying lengths and degrees of urgency. If you want their cooperation, you don't get it with material things such as troops. And the immaterial ones can go either way. "Greetings, Earthlings. In case you didn't notice, you have all been given perfect health and wealth. All it costs you is your eternal cooperation. You can opt out of the scheme at designated stations, but be forewarned: those now better than you will not be kind to you. We, OTOH, will: we have some experience on being nicely and equally superior. Read the pretty brochure. And thank you for your cooperation."

Timo Saloniemi
 
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I guess it's a matter of economy, too. If your definition of victory requires the presence of troops, those are an expense for as long as they are a presence. A threat costs nothing to maintain.
As long as the enemy exists and are still fighting you, you haven't really taken over, you may have Space Superiority, but you haven't done squat about the cancerous enemy that still exists.

Yet what is victory? If you want just the planet for yourself, then by definition you need to get rid of the natives, with mass murder or deportation schemes of varying lengths and degrees of urgency. If you want their cooperation, you don't get it with material things such as troops. And the immaterial ones can go either way.
If we wanted a planet for ourselves that has ___ characteristics, I'm sure there are plenty in our own Milky Way Galaxy that doens't require fighting other people/locals over it, we wouldn't have gone all the way to this planet with potential opposition just for the sake of a challenge.

UFP/StarFleet is here to help. So your ideas of "Mass Murder", "Deportation schemes of varying lengths" are never going to happen. And if some selfish / greedy admiral tries to pull that BS, another one of our own will stop it.

We will get what we want by getting rid of their problem / our opposition and keep the peace until the locals can handle things on their own by training their own locally formed military and police, then let them handle themselves by handing back control gradually as we watch over them for their own safety.

We will work together to make things better and to find a agreement that we can all be amicable to.

"Greetings, Earthlings. In case you didn't notice, you have all been given perfect health and wealth. All it costs you is your eternal cooperation. You can opt out of the scheme at designated stations, but be forewarned: those now better than you will not be kind to you. We, OTOH, will: we have some experience on being nicely and equally superior. Read the pretty brochure. And thank you for your cooperation."
That kind of threat sounds very "Dominion-ish". I don't partake to that kind of behavior or use of leverage.
 
1. Yes, you can nuke a planet. But the US could nuke Afghanistan. Why dont they? Well, that would be genocidal mass murder for one thing. The radiation would do significant harm, especially anyone in cities and countries down wind of the radiation. It could raise the chance of nuclear war. And MAD is in effect. If the Romulans adopt a policy of vaporizing every Klingon colony, the Klingons will do the same back to them.

2. Ground based anti-ship weapons would have the same precision as ship based anti-ground weapons. And a planet can be far, far more heavily armed than even 1,000 starships. So the idea that you will just wipe out the ground forces from orbit is nonsense. They have their own ships, swarm boat fleets, drones, orbital defense, anti-ship ground based missles, beam weapons, WMDs etc. The fleet could be wiped out.
 
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