Do people really think that All Good Things... wasn't enough of a send-off? For me it was a very satisfying conclusion and the films are pretty much optional extras (I've seen First Contact and Insurrection and they can't hold a candle to the best episodes of the TV show).
What Would Be Wrong With Ending TNG On DVD?
- Thread starter slappy
- Start date
I love the TNG crew but do we really need to see more of them? They're easily the best represented Star Trek crew. 7 seasons, 3 movies and an appearance in a crossover movie. Not to mention all the various guest appearances in DS9 and VOY (or even TUC). That's way more than Kirk's or Sisko's crew got.
Of the three standalone TNG movies, only FC is a classic. INS was fun but forgettable, NEM was a mess. What more is to be told with that crew? They looked as old and tired in NEM as Shatner & co did in TUC.
Not to mention that dramatically, there's nowhere to go. Stewart has said he won't do more Trek, Data is dead, Riker and Troi are on another ship. That leaves a crew of Worf, Crusher, Geordi and (God help us) Wesley, if his appearance in NEM is to go by. Can't really see that line-up pulling in the big bucks.
It was great in its day. That day is over. Let it go.
Of the three standalone TNG movies, only FC is a classic. INS was fun but forgettable, NEM was a mess. What more is to be told with that crew? They looked as old and tired in NEM as Shatner & co did in TUC.
Not to mention that dramatically, there's nowhere to go. Stewart has said he won't do more Trek, Data is dead, Riker and Troi are on another ship. That leaves a crew of Worf, Crusher, Geordi and (God help us) Wesley, if his appearance in NEM is to go by. Can't really see that line-up pulling in the big bucks.
It was great in its day. That day is over. Let it go.
I'm not sure what your point about the box office numbers was, I never said TREK XI didn't do well, it's purpose was to do well, I think it was a great well written cool Trek film, but the first Transformers did well too... but it's still seen as a novelty to most people.... to MOST people. We are the hard core fans, but for every one of us there are 20 poeple who don't give a shit, ya get that? We visit this forum mostly as a way to talk about something we love because most of us don't have an outlet for that among those in our real world lives, because (believe it or not) not everybody lives and breathes Trek like we do... ya get that too?
Now, that's why the current market is perfect for the 5% of us who are Trek fans to make straight to DVD projects or other media for our consumption. A big new series may not do well anymore, movies will, but Trek needs a smaller format, in my opinion, to really explore what's great about Trek. So the day is coming soon when they will make product just for us in a direct format. And the new films will fuel that interest.
Like many in this forum I agree that a new TNG project is not really needed. We do have All Good Things, and it is great, and it is closure... the films were just gravy. But something new can emerge, or revists of a shows and concepts like Enterprise and/or the Romulan War. Even a series based on the new film, but TNG is over, and I fine with that.
A little perspective:
ST XI:
Opening Weekend: $75,204,289
Total Worldwide: $385,459,120
In release: 147 days
New Moon:
Opening Weekend: $142,839,137
Total worldwide: $627,420,977
In release: 24 days
Star Trek 11 did do well. On the flip side its numbers are being crushed by New Moon. It has already sailed past ST's total domestic and global take after just 24 days in release. And with one-third the production budget. Yikes. Not sure how the other costs compared, like advertising. But look, ST did do well. A helluva lot better than Nemesis.
But I have to agree that TNG is gone now. Some of its characters can appear, but lets move on to other stories, and other ships. Even if the Ent-E was back Id like a very different crew. I have no problem at all with DVD, or animated or CGI or whatever. If its well written and well executed, then I am all for it.
ST XI:
Opening Weekend: $75,204,289
Total Worldwide: $385,459,120
In release: 147 days
New Moon:
Opening Weekend: $142,839,137
Total worldwide: $627,420,977
In release: 24 days
Star Trek 11 did do well. On the flip side its numbers are being crushed by New Moon. It has already sailed past ST's total domestic and global take after just 24 days in release. And with one-third the production budget. Yikes. Not sure how the other costs compared, like advertising. But look, ST did do well. A helluva lot better than Nemesis.
But I have to agree that TNG is gone now. Some of its characters can appear, but lets move on to other stories, and other ships. Even if the Ent-E was back Id like a very different crew. I have no problem at all with DVD, or animated or CGI or whatever. If its well written and well executed, then I am all for it.
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And New Moon will be crushed by Avatar. So what? Different expectations net in different results.
But the notion that Direct to DVD comes with a stigma is a proven fact. And even if it could be pulled of financially, the chances of it being any good are quite small.
It was a dying series when it went off the air. It spawned four mediocre films that (barely) survived on name alone. TNG just doesn't have the oomph and broad appeal of TOS. Many of the problems that plagued the films would only be augmented in a D-DVD budget.
Also, the franchise has already been disrupted (and nearly killed) from over exposure once before. Why open that can of worms again? Different, franchises or not, it's still wears the Trek badge and public perception (let alone man power and resources) can only end up being deluded.
Plus, revising TNG is only looking backwards. The franchise needs to move forward. The show has been off the air for a decade and a half. That's as good as ancient in Hollywoodland.
And New Moon will be crushed by Avatar. So what? Different expectations net in different results.
But the notion that Direct to DVD comes with a stigma is a proven fact. And even if it could be pulled of financially, the chances of it being any good are quite small.
It was a dying series when it went off the air. It spawned four mediocre films that (barely) survived on name alone. TNG just doesn't have the oomph and broad appeal of TOS. Many of the problems that plagued the films would only be augmented in a D-DVD budget.
Also, the franchise has already been disrupted (and nearly killed) from over exposure once before. Why open that can of worms again? Different, franchises or not, it's still wears the Trek badge and public perception (let alone man power and resources) can only end up being deluded.
Plus, revising TNG is only looking backwards. The franchise needs to move forward. The show has been off the air for a decade and a half. That's as good as ancient in Hollywoodland.
Oh its not a criticism of Star Trek, and I dont even like the Twilight films all that much. Being the inflation-adjusted 181st most successful film in US box office history is no small feat for ST XI. I know that seems like Im damning it with faint praise, but having only 180 movies do better at the US box office in all of history is a very nice accomplishment.
Hardly a phenomenon though. How many actual new trekkers were minted by it is open to some question. Could have been alot of generic popcorn munchers who got 2 hours of diverting slam bam action and then left the theater and haven't given it a second thought since. That certainly describes all the people I know who saw the movie but werent Trek fans.
In any case, I dont have any problem with direct to DVD, or CGI or animation. And I dont accept that anything thats well made and well written will hurt the franchise. Make it as a movie for Showtime if anyone is that concerned about "direct to dvd" having a bad name.
A nice Showtime original movie and see how the audience reacts to it. No I dont think it should be TNG perse, but it can be TNG era, or something else. What I dont think you have to do though is set it in the nuTrek universe. As I said, I am not sure how many actual new fans there are from it or how wedded they really are to the details of a movie they probably havent spent even 5 minutes discussing in all the months since theyve seen it.
Hardly a phenomenon though. How many actual new trekkers were minted by it is open to some question. Could have been alot of generic popcorn munchers who got 2 hours of diverting slam bam action and then left the theater and haven't given it a second thought since. That certainly describes all the people I know who saw the movie but werent Trek fans.
In any case, I dont have any problem with direct to DVD, or CGI or animation. And I dont accept that anything thats well made and well written will hurt the franchise. Make it as a movie for Showtime if anyone is that concerned about "direct to dvd" having a bad name.
A nice Showtime original movie and see how the audience reacts to it. No I dont think it should be TNG perse, but it can be TNG era, or something else. What I dont think you have to do though is set it in the nuTrek universe. As I said, I am not sure how many actual new fans there are from it or how wedded they really are to the details of a movie they probably havent spent even 5 minutes discussing in all the months since theyve seen it.
Direct to DVD does very well, and will continue to do better and better... things change.
Trek itself has the "stigma". As it stands now, it will never be thought of as great entertainment or considered even that good among the average movie/TV viewer, even though in many cases it is. It's thought of as a nerd show, even though it's not. If it's allowed to expand beyond theatrical movies and/or a tv series it will never grow beyond that stigma and we won't have anything new... and the new media is changing everything.
TNG? Probally not... but why not something new in a direct format?
It's a brave new world !!
Direct to DVD does OK. Some do well enough to justify more, others don't. But they don't come close to the profit made from a TV show or Movie. And it will take a LONG time before that changes.
And there is still a stigma attached to direct to dvd productions regardless of their profitability.
That's not the point, and never was. A televison series (as an example) for the most part, will not do the same money as a theatrical release, and mostly because they profit in entirely different ways... it's apples and oranges... but guess what, televison is still a huge market, right? It's about profitability in that particular market based on what it cost to produce a product in that specific market. You think the Clone Wars cartoon does the revenue the Star Wars films did? Hell no, but there is a Clone Wars cartoon, and it's doing well. Straight to DVD will never do as well as the bigger media, of course not, but it is availible in may formats, not just DVD, as is most other media including film and televison, and that's the point... the new media ! There was a writers strike about this shit, read a newspaper. But they'll do well enough to be profitable in the straight to DVD market. AND THAT'S WHAT MATTERS !! Money is money, the market is changing. This is another way Trek can grow !!
Let's take Clone Wars for an example, if direct to dvd is so great, why isn't Lucas putting Clone Wars out as Direct to DVD? Either instead of or in addition to the tv show? Why, because the revenue would be laughable and it would harm the brand more than it would help.
I do read newspapers and I'm well of the writers strike. But if you actually listen to anyone in the industry, Hulu and all new media are about marketing not revenue. The revenue from Hulu is a rounding error compared to commercial sales on TV. Hulu exists so that if you miss an episode on TV, you'll watch it on Hulu rather than dropping the show.
Sure, some techies drop their cable and only watch on Hulu, but that market is so small that no one cares about it yet.
If you want Trek to go Direct to DVD or online streaming you will just confirm the techie/nerd stigma even more. When Fox puts American Idol online rather than on TV, then new media will be ready for main stream. Until then you're kidding yourself if you think a major franchise will go new media.
I do read newspapers and I'm well of the writers strike. But if you actually listen to anyone in the industry, Hulu and all new media are about marketing not revenue. The revenue from Hulu is a rounding error compared to commercial sales on TV. Hulu exists so that if you miss an episode on TV, you'll watch it on Hulu rather than dropping the show.
Sure, some techies drop their cable and only watch on Hulu, but that market is so small that no one cares about it yet.
If you want Trek to go Direct to DVD or online streaming you will just confirm the techie/nerd stigma even more. When Fox puts American Idol online rather than on TV, then new media will be ready for main stream. Until then you're kidding yourself if you think a major franchise will go new media.
The Clone Wars CGI movie was made as a direct to DVD project, but a corporate decision put it theatres first, however it did do much better on DVD.
The Clone Wars CGI movie was made as a direct to DVD project, but a corporate decision put it theatres first, however it did do much better on DVD.
Boy, you are the king of missing the point. I'm not talking about one over the other, I'm talking about all of them at once. You can make a movie, and tv show, and a direct to DVD project, it's called a franchise. Anything in DVD form will be a supplement of some kind, it won't be the flagship, but it will sell in it's own right. It will be available in many formats to be viewed, iTunes, OnDemand, NetFlix, ect. It will be new and it will grow the Trek brand which is always the goal. Of course Hulu is about marketing, they can and do market Trek, they show the remastered TOS, guess why? Because marketing builds revenue in the property, that's how marketing works... But Hulu isn't the only piece of this I'm talking about. You just don't get it, and I'm done with it.
Yug is right on the money, and, lest ye forget, that a little show called Star Trek: The Next Generation changed the entertainment landscape once before. 20 years ago, Star Trek was just a tv show from the sixties whose immense post-cancellation following lead to a string of big budget films that were doing well. Which led to an upgraded new Trek show. But, it wasn’t on a major network (perhaps Trek had too much of “stigma” for the big three to carry it… there’s that word again)…
It was sold into syndication, and let’s not forget the “stigma” that had at the time. Syndication was for reruns, game shows, and Star Search….
But TNG did well regardless. It was on for seven years and graduated into 4 major motion pictures most of which did pretty well. It spawned DS9 and Voyager. The latter being the anchor show for a new syndicated network called UPN, which still exists in the form of the CW and is still going. It opened up the syndicated landscape which led to so many other genre shows from Alien Nation, Babylon 5, Hercules, Xena: Warrior Princess, all the way up to SG-1. It lead to cable channels realizing that they to could produce profitable original episodic televison like Farscape, Battlestar Galactica, The Shield, Rescue Me, Mad Men and Nip/Tuck, to name a few. Even pay cable channels like HBO's The Sopranos can owe something back to that concept. All without being on a big network, and with smaller audiences and which in some cases beat the networks in their primetime slots. And the big three networks haven’t been the same since. They are struggling to maintain an audience. All this because Trek went a new direction, and everyone followed its success. Why can’t that happen again?
Ironic eh, that the very show everyone here wants to poo-poo as a direct to dvd release because of the “stigma”, something new can prosper... Fuck stigma. Trek can go anywhere, and will do so Boldly!
It was sold into syndication, and let’s not forget the “stigma” that had at the time. Syndication was for reruns, game shows, and Star Search….
But TNG did well regardless. It was on for seven years and graduated into 4 major motion pictures most of which did pretty well. It spawned DS9 and Voyager. The latter being the anchor show for a new syndicated network called UPN, which still exists in the form of the CW and is still going. It opened up the syndicated landscape which led to so many other genre shows from Alien Nation, Babylon 5, Hercules, Xena: Warrior Princess, all the way up to SG-1. It lead to cable channels realizing that they to could produce profitable original episodic televison like Farscape, Battlestar Galactica, The Shield, Rescue Me, Mad Men and Nip/Tuck, to name a few. Even pay cable channels like HBO's The Sopranos can owe something back to that concept. All without being on a big network, and with smaller audiences and which in some cases beat the networks in their primetime slots. And the big three networks haven’t been the same since. They are struggling to maintain an audience. All this because Trek went a new direction, and everyone followed its success. Why can’t that happen again?
Ironic eh, that the very show everyone here wants to poo-poo as a direct to dvd release because of the “stigma”, something new can prosper... Fuck stigma. Trek can go anywhere, and will do so Boldly!
I would say that is probably true in terms of the writing, but TNG was making cash hand-over-fist for Paramount, even in the last season.
We all know how unlikely this is though don't we?
most direct to DVD projects are pretty cheap, even the SG-1 principles for example are pretty cheap, none have motion picture careers for example.
Basically you can rule out stewart for a project like this, he would just be far too expensive unless he took a pay cut because he loved the project, and he wouldn't.
Now the rest of the cast could probably be afforded (Enterprise paid out for Spiner, and you could attract LeVar Burton and Frakes back if you gave them production roles, maybe). The odds of the rest being free all at once, willing to do it with a teeny budget (the TNG films all were low budget remember, and the last two still didn't make money) and you are left with an opportunity to collect a check to make something that looks shit next to Avatar with about a minute of SFX, cheap sets and no leading man.
Basically - come off it. Even a VGR or DS9 movie would be borderline impossible as the cast have again gone their seperate ways and have no real interest in the franchise. MAYBE you could put enough cast together and a decent budget and make SOMETHING, but it would be a big pile of wank and we all know it.
Now in the future, we might see a new Trek TV show that is syndicated through the web, but it needs lots of money, Trek is VERY expensive to make properly, fan films look terrible despite all the best efforts of their teams.
Remember as well that when TNG was in first run it was by far the best thing around in or out of its genre, and was unique. The cast remember this and would be unwise to now go back and push out some sub-par product to please a handful of fans who can't move on.
most direct to DVD projects are pretty cheap, even the SG-1 principles for example are pretty cheap, none have motion picture careers for example.
Basically you can rule out stewart for a project like this, he would just be far too expensive unless he took a pay cut because he loved the project, and he wouldn't.
Now the rest of the cast could probably be afforded (Enterprise paid out for Spiner, and you could attract LeVar Burton and Frakes back if you gave them production roles, maybe). The odds of the rest being free all at once, willing to do it with a teeny budget (the TNG films all were low budget remember, and the last two still didn't make money) and you are left with an opportunity to collect a check to make something that looks shit next to Avatar with about a minute of SFX, cheap sets and no leading man.
Basically - come off it. Even a VGR or DS9 movie would be borderline impossible as the cast have again gone their seperate ways and have no real interest in the franchise. MAYBE you could put enough cast together and a decent budget and make SOMETHING, but it would be a big pile of wank and we all know it.
Now in the future, we might see a new Trek TV show that is syndicated through the web, but it needs lots of money, Trek is VERY expensive to make properly, fan films look terrible despite all the best efforts of their teams.
Remember as well that when TNG was in first run it was by far the best thing around in or out of its genre, and was unique. The cast remember this and would be unwise to now go back and push out some sub-par product to please a handful of fans who can't move on.
The fact that networks have lost half their audience to cable is more due to the influence of The Sopranos and expections of shows like that on premium and lately even basic cable. TNG was more the last gasp of the old TV model than a leader of the new. So how could TNG or any Star Trek "do that again?" They didn't do anything to begin with except die with the old TV business model.
Here are the new TV rules:
1) Networks survive on very broad-appeal mass market fodder like police procedurals and reality shows.
2) Premium cable prospers by providing shows that are like movies in terms of content, sophistication and originality, that are specifically and adamantly not anything audiences would expect to find on uncool network TV; and
3) Basic cable has various specialties including how-to shows and documentaries (sometimes given the misnomer of reality TV) but a big chunk of their scripted output is now "HBO Jr." which follows the template of The Sopranos - think Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Sons of Anarchy and BSG.
#1 and #2 are simply not an option for Star Trek - too big of a mismatch. So if you want TNG back on TV, figure out how to get it to work under #3. Anyone have any ideas?
Temis, You have missed my point completely, I'm not talking about new TNG, I speak instead of new Star Trek direct media project. Please, don't quote what you haven't completely read or seemingly not at all comprehended. Read it again maybe. It was the new tv model, for 1989. And it wasn't the last gasp of anything. It's lineage is the reason the new trend in basic cable original programming exists. I used the example of TNG as a game changer in the late 80's, because it's a fact, it did make syndicated sci-fi a profitable genre. And that original syndicated concept has grown since and is growing further into a direct market way. It was TNG that showed the industry that you don't need a major network to run original hour-long scripted programming anymore. I say Trek, STAR TREK (big letters for ya), can do it again as far as opening up new markets, NEW MARKETS for direct projects... mmmm,k?
If Star Trek: The Next Generation made a Direct-to-DVD movie, it would be the highest grossing Direct-to-DVD movie of all time. That is the truth.
I have maintained for quite some time that Trek should move into the Direct to DVD or Mini-Series formats.
The talks about cost are, for the most part, unfounded. Many other Sci-Fi series have gone this route, the Stargate franchise in particular (with both SG-1 and Atlantis moving that direction). Would expect to see some stuff from BSG going that way as well.
There is very little chance that they wouldn't make a decent profit with direct to DVD.
As for whether or not this would conflict with the current incarnation, I doubt it will/would be much of an issue.
Paramount ramped up production of all of the previous Trek material this past year without fear of it conflicting with the theatrical or DVD releases of the movie.
And, to be honest, there are still questions about the shelf life of the Abrams version of the franchise. He is already discussing taking a lesser role in the next movie. Assuming that one does well in the theaters it's anybody's guess as to whether or not he'll even do many beyond that. Plus, given Orci and Kurzman's track record when it comes to penning quality sequels there's no telling whether the next movie will be as good as this one anyway (which, story wise was weak enough as it was). Not sure I've come across anybody who thought Transformers 2 was as good as the first. Although, it still made a ton of money so I'm not sure what that says about the public's taste these days.
Given their rush to get a sequel out, it would appear that they may see a limited window of opportunity for the current incarnation.
At any rate, given the glut of current Trek DVDs out there, they obviously don't see a marketing conflict.
The talks about cost are, for the most part, unfounded. Many other Sci-Fi series have gone this route, the Stargate franchise in particular (with both SG-1 and Atlantis moving that direction). Would expect to see some stuff from BSG going that way as well.
There is very little chance that they wouldn't make a decent profit with direct to DVD.
As for whether or not this would conflict with the current incarnation, I doubt it will/would be much of an issue.
Paramount ramped up production of all of the previous Trek material this past year without fear of it conflicting with the theatrical or DVD releases of the movie.
And, to be honest, there are still questions about the shelf life of the Abrams version of the franchise. He is already discussing taking a lesser role in the next movie. Assuming that one does well in the theaters it's anybody's guess as to whether or not he'll even do many beyond that. Plus, given Orci and Kurzman's track record when it comes to penning quality sequels there's no telling whether the next movie will be as good as this one anyway (which, story wise was weak enough as it was). Not sure I've come across anybody who thought Transformers 2 was as good as the first. Although, it still made a ton of money so I'm not sure what that says about the public's taste these days.
Given their rush to get a sequel out, it would appear that they may see a limited window of opportunity for the current incarnation.
At any rate, given the glut of current Trek DVDs out there, they obviously don't see a marketing conflict.
Y'know, the funny thing is: We watched aging actors in the first 6 TREK movies. Scotty got big as a house, Bones was literally limping around by TUC. So, I guess I could see the key characters of The Next Generation coming back for a few DVD films that show the characters flash forwarded about ten years after Nemesis. Similar to All Good Things, the crew as civilians or higher ranking Starfleet officers filling in that time between the last movie and the AGT timeframe. Small stories, mabye even solo stories, character driven chapters. Say what you want about TNG, Picard, Data and even Riker are fascinating characters in Trek, I'd like to see stories featuring an older wiser Starfleeters. Perhaps retired or facing retirment, what their lives are like as they get older in the Trek universe. Not as the leaders of a grand ship, but doing their own thing.
You're not considering the vast difference in how Paramount regards Star Trek as a brand versus how MGM regards Stargate and how whoever owns BSG (Skiffy?) regards BSG.
This all has to do with brand management - if you have a premium brand, you handle it differently than if you have a sub-premium brand. Don't think as a fan, or as someone who wants to see certain characters or storylines back on TV or DVD. Try to envision yourself in a Paramount corporate suite, making these types of decisions and knowing your career depends on your ability to manage the brand successfully, and that you are utterly indifferent how this is achieved, because nobody hired you to do this job on the basis of being a Star Trek fan. You regard Star Trek much in the same way that a brand manager at Alpo regards dog food - you don't plan on consuming it yourself, but that won't stop you from doing your job. If you can manage the brand best by producing a musical extravaganza starring Neelix, that is what you'll do.
Star Trek is premium and has re-asserted its premium status by being a summer tentpole blockbuster movie. MGM has no such faith in Stargate (nor should it - if they wanted to manage it into a premium brand, they would have to start by firing the bozos they currently have writing/producing it) and therefore has relegated it to the sub-premium sphere of direct-to-DVD release (and they can barely manage to do that much nowadays). BSG hardly exists as a coherent brand. Regardless of critical praise, Ron Moore's TV series didn't make enough of a mark money-wise to bring it up to premium status, and now plans are underway to do a movie that has nothing to do with the TV show.
BSG has no coherent brand vision because it hasn't proven itself financially. It's not worth anyone's while to manage the brand, so it's just being used opportunistically. Star Trek has proven itself (which is a rare enough thing that it shouldn't be thrown away lightly), and therefore is being treated with far more respect, which means nothing that would denegrate the brand through cheapness, which is what direct-to-DVD would do. Any Star Trek story worth telling must be worth putting on the big screen; if it isn't worthy of that, the story has not merited having the brand name slapped onto it. Take the same story and hand it to Stargate - it'll probably be better than whatever those idiots would come up with anyway.
That's old material. I wouldn't expect them to be shy about pushing that our there opportunistically, but they won't be producing any new material simply for DVD, because that would be very bad brand management and whoever suggested they do such a silly thing would be quickly looking for a new line of work. That's what happens when you demonstrate to your boss and co-workers that you don't understand the fundamentals of your job.
That has nothing to do with anything. The general public has signalled that it doesn't find them fascinating enough to flock to the movie theaters, so they are over and done with for anything but low-cost media such as novels.
There's a faint possibility that in a couple of decades, the TNG characters might be resurrected and re-cast like the TOS characters have been. I wouldn't hold my breath, tho.
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