What weakened Trek, and what can restore it?

[CorporalCaptain]

Yeah, to clarify, I wasn't counting the transition from the first to second pilot. I was thinking of:

TOS: Rand, Chekov.
DS9: Dax.

 

[BillJ]

Proof that Altman has an axe to grind?

Let's see, guy wants to write a Trek movie and was obviously rebuffed by Berman who was in charge of the movie franchise at the time. Altman is the only one who states Berman hates TOS.

The rest simply state he didn't understand what made TOS special, which is a sentiment I can get behind.

Did you actually read the whole article?

Just watched Sarek. For someone who hates TOS, Berman treated the character with an unprecedented amount of reverence. But I'm sure some thought that Sarek falling to the ravages of time was somehow disrespectful.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Yeah, to clarify, I wasn't counting the transition from the first to second pilot. I was thinking of:

TOS: Rand, Chekov.
DS9: Dax.

Yep. Very few shows don't have some minor shakeups in their casts at some point, but Trek generally begin and end with the bulk of their regular casts intact (you generally know nobody's leaving the show unless there's news of them quitting/being let go). A future Trek show may not sign cast members to supposed seven-year or "running" contracts, and may go for short-term deals with options to renew.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I don't think a Trek Cop Show would work.

[At crime scene]
Forensic Tech 1: Sir, my tricorder is picking up Orion skin cells.
Team Leader: Enough for a DNA comparison?
Forensic Tech 1: Yes sir. I've sent them through to HQ.
[Moment later]
Computer Tech 1: Sir, the DNA matches an Orion on file. We've pinpointed his position.
Team Leader: Beam him to the brig.
[Later that day, in the Brig]
Betazoid Officer: He did it, sir. Its all he can think about.
Team Leader: Case closed. So...umm...what do we do for the next forty minutes?
Betazoid Officer: Fill it with cool-looking graphics, fly-bys and hot women in little more than body paint?

 

[MacLeod]

And as I pointed out so did TNG and VOY have cast changes during their 7 years

So did TOS and DS9. But none of the "lead" characters.

Well there is a subtle difference between main and lead, main tends to refer to anyone listed in the main title sequence. Lead tends to be which of the main characters recieve the most attention/screen time etc..

So in VOY Janewat/Seven/EMH would be considered lead, whilst the likes of Chakotay/Kim would be considered main.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

And as I pointed out so did TNG and VOY have cast changes during their 7 years

So did TOS and DS9. But none of the "lead" characters.

Well there is a subtle difference between main and lead, main tends to refer to anyone listed in the main title sequence. Lead tends to be which of the main characters recieve the most attention/screen time etc..

So in VOY Janewat/Seven/EMH would be considered lead, whilst the likes of Chakotay/Kim would be considered main.

Right.

Seven was certainly a lead character (without quotation marks). I agree that the EMH was a breakout character who developed into a leading role over the run of the show.

Kes, though, was never a lead character. So, while I accept the clarification in the case of VOY that a lead character was added, no lead character was removed.

In the case of TOS, Rand and Chekov certainly weren't lead characters.

In the case of DS9, neither Jadzia nor Ezri were "lead" characters, where by the "lead" characters in DS9, in quotation marks, I mean and meant Sisko and Kira, in the sense that C.E. Evans said.

Is either Dax considered a leading role, without quotation marks, though? Of all the Star Trek shows, I think DS9 had much more of an ensemble going than the other series.

 

[Ian Keldon]

How did DSN mishandle TOS?

The biggest referrence to TOS in DSN was "Trials and Tribble-ations" which many fans consider to be respectful of TOS as opposed to VOY "Flashback".

And "Flashback" was really respectful as opposed to "Unification", most of "Relics" and Janeway's little snit about how the TOS characters would be summarily booted out of Starfleet in the 24th century.

 

[BillJ]

...Janeway's little snit about how the TOS characters would be summarily booted out of Starfleet in the 24th century.

I'm pretty sure she's simply speaking the truth there. Members of the U.S. military from the 19th or early-20th century would probably have a tough time fitting into today's military. There are massive cultural differences.

 

[Ian Keldon]

Berman's general disdain for the show is well known and documented from writer/producer interviews. (Though that turned out to be something of a blessing as well as it allowed them to get around his idiotic restrictions as to story tone and content). That disdain meant few crossovers/cross-promotions, lack of support from Marketing,

Care to cite a source for all this?

History. Lack of Paramount "push" for DS9 compared to the other shows.

and cheap shots like trying to Destroy the Defiant in First Contact.

I'd like to see a legitimate source for this as well.

Moore himself said it. Braga has at least mentioned it. So has Behr himself.

With regard to the "cheap shot" of "trying to destroy the Defiant", you couldn't be more wrong. Originally, John Eaves was asked to come up with a new type of starship that Moore and Braga dubbed the Endeavor. The entire point of its existence was so that they'd have one ship that would get destroyed in a blaze of glory before the Enterprise shows up to take on the Borg cube. This is all covered in the Star Trek: Sketchbook by John Eaves covering Generations and First Contact. Eventually though, the Endeavor became the Defiant when the writers decided to use it to introduce Worf.

The Endeavor has nothing to do with the planned destruction of the Defiant.

Lastly, your theory ignores the plain fact that Ron Moore was working for Ira Behr on DS9 when Moore and Braga wrote the script for First Contact. Do you really think he wouldn't have fought Berman and Braga over destroying the Defiant if your assumption were true?

The planned destruction was in an earlier script.

 

[BillJ]

The planned destruction was in an earlier script.

But what does it matter since that version didn't make it to the screen?

 

[Ian Keldon]

The planned destruction was in an earlier script.

But what does it matter since that version didn't make it to the screen?

Because it WOULD have had Behr not went to Berman (whose idea it was) and said "Not with MY ship you don't!" (to coin a phrase).

 

[BillJ]

The planned destruction was in an earlier script.

But what does it matter since that version didn't make it to the screen?

Because it WOULD have had Behr not went to Berman (whose idea it was) and said "Not with MY ship you don't!" (to coin a phrase).

Since Behr worked for Berman, I doubt the situation went down the way you described it or else Behr would've been handed his walking papers.

You do realize that the main ship of one series or another has been talked about in regards to destruction? They talked about blowing up the Enterprise for the season six finale. They talked about blowing up a version of the Enterprise for Star Trek 2009. And if the Defiant had been destroyed, we would have just gotten the "A" that much sooner (and would've had the money to update the ship effects). So no sweat off of my ass either way.

 

[doubleohfive]

Ian Keldon, I would very much like to see sources to confirm any of what you've postulated here, beyond your own casual posts of "HIstory" or referring to Moore "having said is," etc.

I've posted citations for where I've gotten my information. (The Sketchbook, the Companion, etc.) Right now, all you've done is relate to us what you've read/heard - effectively expecting us to rely on your hearsay.

You'll forgive me if I don't take your "facts" at face value.

 

[doubleohfive]

The planned destruction was in an earlier script.

But what does it matter since that version didn't make it to the screen?

Because it WOULD have had Behr not went to Berman (whose idea it was) and said "Not with MY ship you don't!" (to coin a phrase).

So, the issue we're debating here is what WOULD Berman have done if he'd had his (alleged) way? Even though things turned out differently? Am I understanding that right?

From The Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion, page 407, under the notes section for Episode #508 "Rapture:"

The Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion wrote:

A rather tongue-in-cheek method of drawing attention to the new costumes found its way into the script for "Rapture," when Bashir asks Sisko, "Does my uniform look brighter to you?"

But this was as far as the writers went in terms of incorporating references to First Contact into the episode. Despite the fact that viewers probably would have appreciated something as simple as a mention of recent repairs to the Defiant, which supposedly was badly damaged in the film Behr wanted to forget about the use of Deep Space Nine's beloved battleship in the project.

"I didn't see the point in bringing it on just to kick the crap out of it," he says. Behr notes that the line "Tough little ship," was added to the movie's script after he voiced his concerns.

That's all they say in the DS9 Companion about the Defiant's role in First Contact. I would love to see some official documentation of the claims you are making here, Ian Keldon, but apart from Behr's concern for the portrayal of the ship and his own dissatisfaction with the use of it, I dont' see how that necessarily equates to "Berman wanted to destroy it, OMFG HE HATES TEH DS9!!!!!!!"

I'll happily concede my point if you can provide some kind of legit reference or source for what you're claiming.