In the FASA Trekverse, it was intended to be a smaller refit but Scotty realized the newer technology wasn't compatible with some of the existing systems, and thus it took 18 months for the newer refit.
What was the point in the 1701 refit?
- Thread starter Richard S. Ta
- Start date
In the FASA Trekverse, it was intended to be a smaller refit but Scotty realized the newer technology wasn't compatible with some of the existing systems, and thus it took 18 months for the newer refit.
Well, the 1701 didn't really fare any better or worse than other SF ships when you think about it.
In fact, the original 1701 (and the A) lasted much longer than the ENT-D for example whose warp core exploded due to Riker's (and Worf's) incompetence.
Trek series have a tendency to put the heroes through ridiculous situations and SF in general not learning from those mistakes... so, you'd end up eventually with the ship being destroyed (though this kind of accident could happen to any ship technically).
What I would like to know is what happened to the Enterprise-B - how long was it in service for example.
The ENT-C had a fairly brief service record though and SF didn't built another enterprise for what... 20 odd years?
In such a scenario in which the Enterprise had a fairly routine refit, it might have taken only 8 weeks, and the ship wouldn't have been so extensively redesigned perhaps.
Unfortunately we don't get a real hint until 2 movies later when the Enterprise self destructs. Then we see her frames. From that and an episode of TNG, we know that starships are built with an internal frame that most closely matches older wooden sailing ships (though most of the era the frames were wood, but toward the end several Clippers were built with metal frames and a wooden hull, such as the Adelaide).
My first assumption when trying to draft the original and the refit was that the frame and decks were altered very little. Most of the refit is a surface change rather than a deep operational one. So the core space frame remains the same and the ends of the frames are altered to the new hull lines. This leaves the majority of the ship intact and unchained (at least from a structural perspective) while the interiors were refreshed and the impulse engines, warp drive, sensors and deflectors were all replaced.
When you consider the design of Starfleet vessels, the warp nacelles seem to be designed to be interchangeable and replaceable as needed. So the real work as swapping out the TOS warp core for the TMP warp core. And if you follow Matt Jefferies and Doug Dexler's ideas that Main engineering is on the same deck as the hanger, you suddenly have a design plan that makes sense. Cut into the forward part of the secondary hull and insert the new warp core while at the same time you tear out the old warp core and convert it to a cargo handling area. That greatly saves time in the refit process.
Ships around the world have gone through many refits. Some good some bad. USS Constitution has gone through many, with some changing her lines. Most significantly in 1858, 1890, 1907, 1927, and 2016. In her years of active service, her weapons and rigging were changed at the whim of the captain. Her decorations were changed as damage and rot necessitated and at the whim of the builders. He last major cosmetic change was 1876 when she was given her current decoration and her color scheme is from 1812 and 1907.
In the 1990's any older ship that was going to remain in service went through a service life extension program. Perhaps the most significant change to the ships for that was that every watertight door was replaced with one that went to the floor (or at least much closer). So no more having to step over the high threshold of the old oval doors. That is a pretty major alteration to a welded metal ship. And going back further, between WWI and WWII, many ships received a major upgrade to their superstructure. And then the WWII carriers that stayed in service for aircraft received an angled flight neck and had the bow filled in (the WWII design had an open area at the bow where they had a couple of weapons on the deck below the flight deck).
And lets not forget the cruise ships that have been cut in two and an lengthening insert added amidship. And the aforementioned ironclad conversions.
These cover a variety of different modifications ships have gone through. When you consider the core framework revealed in Star Trek III and TNG and assume that they changed as little as possible to get the new look, you can find many parallels in the annals of Naval history. So the refit is perfectly plausible. If you assume that most of the construction time is building the frame and that very little of that was touched on the Enterprise refit, then the 18 months quoted for the refit out of a 5 year build time could make a lot of sense.
As to how much of the ship was kept... well, a ship is more than its parts. USS Constitution only retains her frames that lie under the waterline. the rest has all been replaced at one point or another (the most major in 1928). But she is considered the same ship. Her keel is intact. For many years it was believed that the USS Constellation was her sister ship, but modern examinations have proven that when her sister went into dock in 1854, that she was broken up and a new ship built. The modern ship has the lines of an 1850's corvette, not a 1790's frigate. It was one way to get a new ship without authorization. Constitution on the other hand has the same lines she did originally (the original plans exist) except for how the gunwales are finished.
So as far as I'm concerned, the TMP refit is the same ship and the refit makes perfect sense in universe.
My first assumption when trying to draft the original and the refit was that the frame and decks were altered very little. Most of the refit is a surface change rather than a deep operational one. So the core space frame remains the same and the ends of the frames are altered to the new hull lines. This leaves the majority of the ship intact and unchained (at least from a structural perspective) while the interiors were refreshed and the impulse engines, warp drive, sensors and deflectors were all replaced.
When you consider the design of Starfleet vessels, the warp nacelles seem to be designed to be interchangeable and replaceable as needed. So the real work as swapping out the TOS warp core for the TMP warp core. And if you follow Matt Jefferies and Doug Dexler's ideas that Main engineering is on the same deck as the hanger, you suddenly have a design plan that makes sense. Cut into the forward part of the secondary hull and insert the new warp core while at the same time you tear out the old warp core and convert it to a cargo handling area. That greatly saves time in the refit process.
Ships around the world have gone through many refits. Some good some bad. USS Constitution has gone through many, with some changing her lines. Most significantly in 1858, 1890, 1907, 1927, and 2016. In her years of active service, her weapons and rigging were changed at the whim of the captain. Her decorations were changed as damage and rot necessitated and at the whim of the builders. He last major cosmetic change was 1876 when she was given her current decoration and her color scheme is from 1812 and 1907.
In the 1990's any older ship that was going to remain in service went through a service life extension program. Perhaps the most significant change to the ships for that was that every watertight door was replaced with one that went to the floor (or at least much closer). So no more having to step over the high threshold of the old oval doors. That is a pretty major alteration to a welded metal ship. And going back further, between WWI and WWII, many ships received a major upgrade to their superstructure. And then the WWII carriers that stayed in service for aircraft received an angled flight neck and had the bow filled in (the WWII design had an open area at the bow where they had a couple of weapons on the deck below the flight deck).
And lets not forget the cruise ships that have been cut in two and an lengthening insert added amidship. And the aforementioned ironclad conversions.
These cover a variety of different modifications ships have gone through. When you consider the core framework revealed in Star Trek III and TNG and assume that they changed as little as possible to get the new look, you can find many parallels in the annals of Naval history. So the refit is perfectly plausible. If you assume that most of the construction time is building the frame and that very little of that was touched on the Enterprise refit, then the 18 months quoted for the refit out of a 5 year build time could make a lot of sense.
As to how much of the ship was kept... well, a ship is more than its parts. USS Constitution only retains her frames that lie under the waterline. the rest has all been replaced at one point or another (the most major in 1928). But she is considered the same ship. Her keel is intact. For many years it was believed that the USS Constellation was her sister ship, but modern examinations have proven that when her sister went into dock in 1854, that she was broken up and a new ship built. The modern ship has the lines of an 1850's corvette, not a 1790's frigate. It was one way to get a new ship without authorization. Constitution on the other hand has the same lines she did originally (the original plans exist) except for how the gunwales are finished.
So as far as I'm concerned, the TMP refit is the same ship and the refit makes perfect sense in universe.
In all fairness to the Refit Enterprise and how it went down.
Didn't Kirk & Crew hijack the Refit Enterprise that was about to be decommissioned in (ST3:TSFS). I remember Kirk self-destructing the Refit Enterprise when it was about to be boarded by the Klingons?
The reason the USS Enterprise wasn't able to fight back was because it wasn't properly crewed, it had a crude Automation System to Auto-pilot the vessel, the Automation system wasn't designed for combat. Kirk then turned on Self-Destruct to take out the Klingon boarding party.
I have the FASA ship recognition manuals. TOS E is 289 meters and Refit is 305. So no, it is not smaller. Those numbers were established by Jefferies for the TOS (947') and Richard Taylor for the refit (1000') and appeared in FJ's TOS documents (and Discovery) and on David Kimble's TMP drawings and cutaway poster. Those exact sizes were repeated by Probert for the TNG legacy display wall.
Exactly. It served from 2271 to 2285 and likely faced a lot of dangerous missions in the years before it was retired to serve as Spock's training ship at the Academy. And 1701-A served for another 7 years giving the refit version 21 years compared to 24 for the original design. And we know 1701-A was retired so they could launch an Excelsior Class 1701-B. So the ship we know as 1701-A may have been renamed and reregistered and gone one to serve for more years. But as it is that is 49 years for the Constitution Class. So there is no indication the class was having any troubles, except when Scotty tried to automate the system to go back to Genesis with a skeleton crew (it was originally going to be Kirk and McCoy only).
And we all know basic StarShip Automation wouldn't have enough basic competence until ST:VOY episode "Message in a Bottle" where 'The EMH Doctor' was sent onto the USS Prometheus to notify StarFleet of USS Voyager's survival from in the Badlands.
At that point, two inexperienced EMH's was able to defeat Romulans who stole the USS Prometheus and other Tal Shiar D'deridex Warbirds.
That was all there, but visually the real Enterprise never had all those issues visually, the vessel was built to last and the writing made an effort to make the ship I loved shine every week on Star Trek. Not too much for the movie version, visually didn't have the same panache, Warp drive creating wormholes, transporters killing people, Scotty and the gang wearing hazmat suits, you would think a ship that was 20 years old IN THE MOVIE VERSE would handle herself a lot better, and sadly only survived barely 3 movies doesn't make it much of a point for a so-called refit. The movies claim THAT Enterprise was 20 years old and that was presented... in dog years.
But the major issue is that Kirk & Crew stole the ship with a less than skeleton crew, jerry-rigged it to get him & company to get Spock's Katra/Soul back. Kirk & Crew wasn't prepared for a fight, not being prepared means a easily winnable battle turns into a losing situation.
That's the fault of Kirk & companies actions, not the Refit Enterprises.
And it does suck that 20 years went by, and you didn't get to see more of the ship in action before Kirk self destructed the Connie.
But that's the fault of the writers who setup the scenarios and not give the USS Enterprise a proper retirement.
Absolutely it's on the writers. They wanted the Enterprise blown up in ST3 and made Kirk & Co look dumb doing it. Right after the helm station shorted out Scotty says he has no control over the automation yet no one thinks to run down to the actual stations below like the phaser control room or shield control and manually activate them? Yes, Scotty didn't setup the automation for combat but there wasn't anything that precluded the crew from running down to the actual controls in the ship below to return fire or raise the shields. It was also weird that no one attempted to beam/trade places with the shields down.
Maybe they've all been in management for too long and haven't had to do anything manually for years. They're so used to having crew / underlings around to do everything they ask that they forgot to do things themselves when they're on their own?Absolutely it's on the writers. They wanted the Enterprise blown up in ST3 and made Kirk & Co look dumb doing it. Right after the helm station shorted out Scotty says he has no control over the automation yet no one thinks to run down to the actual stations below like the phaser control room or shield control and manually activate them? Yes, Scotty didn't setup the automation for combat but there wasn't anything that precluded the crew from running down to the actual controls in the ship below to return fire or raise the shields. It was also weird that no one attempted to beam/trade places with the shields down.
That could be excused for Sulu and Chekov but Scotty was the guy that just rigged it all up earlier in the movie. The movie felt worse because no one tried harder to save the Enterprise. It seemed like the characters did more to work the Constellation in "The Doomsday Machine" than for the Enterprise in "The Search for Spock".
KIRK: Emergency power! Prepare to return fire. Mister Scott, can you transfer power to the phaser banks.
SCOTT: I don't think so, sir.
KIRK: What happened?
SCOTT: They've knocked out the automation center. I've got no control over anything!
KIRK: Mister Sulu?
SULU: Nothing sir.
KIRK: So ...we're a sitting duck. <- REMOVE
INSTEAD...
KIRK: Scotty, Chekov, get down to Engineering and get us shields and power!
SCOTT: Aye sir
[Scotty and Chekov leave bridge.]
KIRK: Sulu let's get down to phaser control.
MCCOY: Jim, what do I do?
KIRK: Stall them!
Now the writers can have the characters report back the damage is more extensive and even the manual controls are out but at least they would've shown that they *tried*.
In my head canon the Enterprise became a test bed for a whole bunch of new independent tech innovations.
Possibly a good chunk of which ended up in the Excelsior design eventually.
At the end of a nearly 18 month testing and experimenting cycle Starfleet decided to close the lids and open bulkheads and recommissioned her for duty, except the V’ger crisis accelerated the time table and they had to leave space dock with major systems like the new warp core being not fully tested.
Possibly a good chunk of which ended up in the Excelsior design eventually.
At the end of a nearly 18 month testing and experimenting cycle Starfleet decided to close the lids and open bulkheads and recommissioned her for duty, except the V’ger crisis accelerated the time table and they had to leave space dock with major systems like the new warp core being not fully tested.
Another question... The 1701 Refit is considered to be a museum piece by the time of TSFS...
So is the 1701-A seen in TVH a new ship or yet another rundown refit Connie?
So is the 1701-A seen in TVH a new ship or yet another rundown refit Connie?
Considering that Starfleet was preparing to decommission the ship only seven years after she launched, it's pretty clear that it was a refitted ship that had served under another name before they splashed it with a coat of whitewash and stenciled "1701-A" across the hull.
It sort of takes the shine off of TVH.
"Thanks for traveling through time to save the Earth... Here's a clapped out old banger and a demotion!"
"Thanks for traveling through time to save the Earth... Here's a clapped out old banger and a demotion!"
I'd like to think admiralty privately gave kirk a choice, a static-display Connie to give Scotty something to do getting her ready, now that no other captain would trust him, and a place for the crew to serve out into retirement, or that stubby Crossfield/B24-CLN type you can just barely notice in one or two scenes inside the Earth Spacedock.
I say there was frame damage from the battle in TUC, and Starfleet calling in at the end of the movie was the way Kirk and company found out they'd decided the ship was a total loss, even though it was still relatively new (embarrassingly, right after Kirk had recorded in his log that he expected the ship to get a new command crew). That through-and-through on the saucer couldn't have been good for the ship's structure, especially since Spock could hear it happen halfway across the ship.
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