• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

What was happening in the Laurentian System?

Timo said:
2300 hours: Nero fakes unrest in Klingon space

Of course, we know this is not at all congruent with the original intent of the Rura Penthe material. Nero & Co. were supposed to have been imprisoned by the Klingons. That this did not explicitly make it into the final film does not make the idea of the Klingon battle not actually happening any less an exercise in ex post facto revisionism.

Timo said:
Kirk's wounded starship easily overtakes the mining rig on the Vulcan-to-Earth trip

Not quite; Nero is already at Earth by the time the Enterprise arrives at Titan. And we don't know for a fact that Nero traveled to Earth at the Narada's maximum speed.

Timo said:
Starfleet would surely have to respond big time to unrest in Klingon space but near UFP holdings

The key words are "in Klingon space". At most they could go to the border, I guess. But even that might not accomplish much.

Timo said:
But the movie as filmed does not have Nero jailed for 25 years

It doesn't rule it out, though.
 
JJ wanted to alter Kirk's life right from the day of his birth, but also have the same bad guy have a show down with the adult James T. Kirk. That gives Kirk a chance to "do better" than his father in a similar situation, but it leaves you having to explain "what was the Narada doing for 25 years?".

Offscreen, the crippled Narada is captured by the Klingons. It's not on-screen "canon", but better explanations are hard to come by. He was "honing his plan"? Maybe he was waiting for Future Spock to come through. But how did he know Spock would come through? Is he an expert in temporal physics in addition to his day job as a miner?

After months go by with no Spock, wouldn't he conclude Spock's ship must have been destroyed or had not gone through? And if he is so upset about the loss of Romulus why doesn't he do anything to save it, now that he has the chance? Why not warn them, send them specs on his weapons, his ship, etc.? So he spends 25 years just sitting there, not helping the Romulans and making no move against anyone?

This nutty situation is created by JJ himself, stemming from the 25 year time gap.
 
Last edited:
It doesn't rule it out, though.
There no hint in the movie where Nero and his ship are for a quarter century. Yes there is a battle between the Klingon and "someone," but that doesn't mean Nero was in a cell since the opening titles.

:)
 
What they should have done was have Kelvin's ramming attack cause Narada to fall back into a still open wormhole and re-emerge 25 years later.
 
Of course, we know this is not at all congruent with the original intent of the Rura Penthe material. Nero & Co. were supposed to have been imprisoned by the Klingons. That this did not explicitly make it into the final film does not make the idea of the Klingon battle not actually happening any less an exercise in ex post facto revisionism.
Indeed so. OTOH, revisionism probably trumps intent in this particular case - complicated plotlines are often ill thought out originally, and editing results in improvements but also leaves gaps to be filled by the audience (which is predominantly a positive thing itself).

Nero is already at Earth by the time the Enterprise arrives at Titan.
...Which should negate the heroes' apparent original plan of stalking the villain from the moon and then beaming aboard when he flies by - but the super-teleporter apparently negates the need for that. Or then the original plan never quite went like that, despite the dialogue, which would be preferable overall, as counting on a close Nero flyby isn't astronomically plausible.

Also, we don't know how long Nero had been there already; at Vulcan, he seemed to loiter for a while before activating his drill. However:

And we don't know for a fact that Nero traveled to Earth at the Narada's maximum speed.
It would be extremely odd for him not to, as Starfleet is bound to respond and recall the distant fleet. Timing is Nero's only real weapon here, as we witness the weakness of his drill and the shortcomings of red matter as weapons of war.

The key words are "in Klingon space". At most they could go to the border, I guess. But even that might not accomplish much.
ST:ID would seem to establish that Starfleet goes on tiptoes whenever Klingons are mentioned, so a penetration maneuver would be right out. But a fleet of hopefully more than 47 ships deployed on the UFP side and waiting for the reputed Romulan menace would be an appropriate and necessary response to the message from the "Klingon prison planet".

Offscreen, the crippled Narada is captured by the Klingons. It's not on-screen "canon", but better explanations are hard to come by.
That's the beauty of it - no explanation is needed, in dramatic or story-logical terms. Nero cannot accomplish anything in those 25 years, because he has to wait for Spock to arrive. It's Hell on Earth (or wherever) for him, but there's no going around it: not only does he want to punish Spock for the loss of Romulus, he has to capture Spock to obtain the means to punish him.

Were Nero somehow hindered, detained or hurt by outside forces in those years, this would only detract from the story and weaken the impact of the wait.

In practical terms, what could Nero hope to do or accomplish? His mining rig is incapable of standing against even a single surprised Federation starship, and he doesn't know anybody or anything about the era he is stuck in. Nero needs knowledge, but he must obtain it without being challenged, lest all be lost. So logically, nobody should hear of Nero in the intervening years...

Is he an expert in temporal physics in addition to his day job as a miner?
Apparently, it takes him (or that Ael character who seems to advise him) 25 years to figure it all out; his crew seems fed up with false "second coming" predictions already when the final one does come true.

After months go by with no Spock, wouldn't he conclude Spock's ship must have been destroyed or had not gone through?
If he did, we'd have a different movie. But apparently, he was instead able to conclude what had really happened to Spock.

And if he is so upset about the loss of Romulus why doesn't he do anything to save it, now that he has the chance? Why not warn them, send them specs on his weapons, his ship, etc.? So he spends 25 years just sitting there, not helping the Romulans and making no move against anyone?
We don't know whether he did so or not. If the star that goes kaboom is not Romulus' homestar, Nero could have harmlessly blown it up (down?) with red matter at 2230 hours for all we know...

Timo Saloniemi
 
That's the beauty of it - no explanation is needed, in dramatic or story-logical terms. Nero cannot accomplish anything in those 25 years, because he has to wait for Spock to arrive.

He could accomplish a great deal. He can easily overwhelm any Starfleet vessel, assassinate leaders, raid shipping, destroy bases, etc. Killing child Spock, once they realize when and where they are, would be childs play.

Of course I don't buy as plausible the idea he would ever blame Spock for anything in the first place. It makes no sense whatsoever to me that he would. Nor that a miner, of all things, would have any knowledge of what was happening.

In any case, the main limiting factor for his actions is the crippled state of his ship. If he isn't captured, he would indeed have to have the ship repaired. Romulus would be the best place to get help. His only reasonable concern would be that the Tal Shiar and Romulan government would want that ship and its technology. I cannot imagine him not sending them specs on his ship, its weapons, etc. But he would not likely have wanted to risk having it taken by them.

Were Nero somehow hindered, detained or hurt by outside forces in those years, this would only detract from the story and weaken the impact of the wait.

I was not a big fan of the captured by Klingons idea. But the alternatives seem worse. He doesn't initially seem to realize what century he is in, and that no one is going to know who "Ambassador Spock" is. Let alone that he us just going to sit around waiting week upon week, month after month, decade after decade until Spock suddenly appears.

Without an expert in temporal physics it is more likely that he did not know if Future Spock was coming through or not. Either way he could not just stay where they were, as the survivors of the Kelvin would have signaled that position to Starfleet, and there is no doubt ships went to investigate.

For all Starfleet knows, the Romulans have astonishingly built an 8,000 meter ship capable of blasting through starship defenses with ease. This would have been a major incident throughout the quadrant. Starfleet would have mobilized, conducted extensive searches of the area, and of the neutral zone for Romulan activity. It must have been both a relief and a surprise, as months went by, that all was quiet on the Romulan frontier. No unusual signs of activity, no invasion force, no other signs of Romulan ships of this magnitude etc. I am sure Section 31 swung into action on this news.

But the idea that an 8 KM ship could just have sat around in that sector for 25 years unnoticed while waiting for Spock is beyond implausible. The captured by Klingons idea at least had the benefit of explaining why the Starfleet, which undoubtedly mounted a massive search for it, was not able to find this enormous, but crippled ship.

He doesn't know anybody or anything about the era he is stuck in. Nero needs knowledge, but he must obtain it without being challenged, lest all be lost.

I assume that he, his crew and his ships records have some information on the 23rd century. None of it should be too surprising to him. And he of course has knowledge that none of the contemporary civilizations do. He should know of civilizations that they are as yet unaware of, planets where he might get supplies, affect repairs, etc.

If he did, we'd have a different movie.

Indeed! And therein lies the real explanation for these issues! ;) This is the movie they wanted, and how they wanted to tell the story.

We don't know whether he did so or not. If the star that goes kaboom is not Romulus' homestar, Nero could have harmlessly blown it up (down?) with red matter at 2230 hours for all we know...

Timo Saloniemi

Of course if it wasn't a naturally occurring Supernova, and it could not have been, it probably wouldn't matter, since whatever nefarious alien force is responsible for it would just choose a different one and destroy Romulus anyway.
 
Last edited:
Timo said:
...Which should negate the heroes' apparent original plan of stalking the villain from the moon and then beaming aboard when he flies by

Since when was this the original plan?

Timo said:
Apparently, it takes him (or that Ael character who seems to advise him) 25 years to figure it all out

There is no indication of this; for all we know it was figured out many years prior to 2258 but they had to wait until the right point in time.

Timo said:
His mining rig is incapable of standing against even a single surprised Federation starship

Tell that to the crew of the Mayflower and the other surprised Federation starships destroyed at Vulcan.

Timo said:
If the star that goes kaboom is not Romulus' homestar

Clearly it is not. If it had been, there would have been no possibility of saving Romulus.
 
What they should have done was have Kelvin's ramming attack cause Narada to fall back into a still open wormhole and re-emerge 25 years later.

Except I don't think the wormhole was still open, it looks like the time vortex's exit stays open just long enough for the ship thrown through it to exit and then it closes until the next thing comes through.

Kind of like that wormhole for TNG and Voyager that had one end staying in one place and the other end randomly jumping around the galaxy.
 
That's why I said "still open".

To AirCommodore's point above about hiding Narada, even at 8km long, that's still a tiny needle in the vast haystack of space. Plus, I've always had the sense that most long-range detection of much smaller ships involves sensing their power sources or warp-fields. It seems like powering down would have allowed Narada to hide effectively, after all, Botany Bay sailed out of the core of the Federation for 200+ years at would have to have been a pretty good sublight speed without being detected.

One other thing, following the Kelvin's collision, it could have taken what seemed like Narada's relatively small crew 10-15 years to effectively repair the damage.
 
The Narada's 24th Century computer could have had all the temporal mechanics expertise needed. Nero could have BECOME an expert in the time (weeks? months? years?) to get the Narada up and running after being rammed by what was essentially an antimatter missile.

I leave the Rura Penthe stuff on the cutting room floor.
 
I leave the Rura Penthe stuff on the cutting room floor.

Funny, while it sucks, the Nero comic did use that part to some effect. Nero used a former Starfleet officer imprisoned on Rura Penthe to figure out when Spock would emerge.
 
He could accomplish a great deal. He can easily overwhelm any Starfleet vessel

But he cannot; he is nearly defeated by a Starfleet vessel he already supposedly drop-punched to submission. Not until after he has met Spock does he demonstrate an ability to fight, for whatever reason. (Perhaps he needed red matter to defeat starships, too?)

...assassinate leaders, raid shipping, destroy bases, etc. Killing child Spock, once they realize when and where they are, would be childs play.

He wouldn't last for a week after he starts acting; indeed, he's brought down in mere hours when he does. If he wants to avenge himself upon Spock and Vulcan, there's no point in doing it piecemeal, and when the only Spock in the neighborhood is too young to comprehend.

Really, waiting for Spock is absolutely necessary for both practical and psychological reasons. So the only real question is the one you ask: how does Nero know to wait? And the answer may simply be, he hopes against hope, because there's nothing else for him in this world anyway.

Of course I don't buy as plausible the idea he would ever blame Spock for anything in the first place. It makes no sense whatsoever to me that he would. Nor that a miner, of all things, would have any knowledge of what was happening.

I guess anybody meeting Spock at the ruins of Vulcan would qualify as the avenging angel. Romulus is dust, there aren't too many surviving parties that could be blamed, and Spock is right there, rather literally red-handed.

In any case, the main limiting factor for his actions is the crippled state of his ship. If he isn't captured, he would indeed have to have the ship repaired. Romulus would be the best place to get help.

I'm not sure repairs would be a problem, really. Nero is riding a major industrial platform, with entire starships stored in her hangars. Self-repair might be a trivial matter of time.

What limits his actions is that he is riding a major industrial platform. It's difficult to exact vengeance with those! Only red matter will suffice for turning the mining rig into a fighting vessel, apparently - hence the massive discrepancy between the fighting abilities at the teaser and the fighting abilities at Vulcan.

I was not a big fan of the captured by Klingons idea. But the alternatives seem worse. [..] For all Starfleet knows, the Romulans have astonishingly built an 8,000 meter ship capable of blasting through starship defenses with ease. This would have been a major incident throughout the quadrant. Starfleet would have mobilized, conducted extensive searches of the area, and of the neutral zone for Romulan activity.

Only if they knew the Narada was related to Romulans. This is known by the time Pike writes his dissertation, but how could Starfleet know this at the time of the incident itself? "Being flown by pointy-eared folks" is not a known characteristic of Romulan ships in the pre-intervention timeline, and the intervention itself does not appear to change that fact - the name Romulans is not mentioned, Romulan language (AFAWK) is not spoken, etc.

Apart from that, sure, it's a big incident. But the Trek universe is full of those. It wouldn't be a game-changer or anything; we never hear of Starfleet reacting in any major fashion to far deadlier things such as space amoebae or V'Gers or Whale Probes.

But the idea that an 8 KM ship could just have sat around in that sector for 25 years unnoticed while waiting for Spock is beyond implausible.

How so? Most things in Star Trek remain unnoticed until noticed; some even in areas where Starfleet supposedly is very active. Space is big and searching for things typically futile.

Of course if it wasn't a naturally occurring Supernova, and it could not have been, it probably wouldn't matter, since whatever nefarious alien force is responsible for it would just choose a different one and destroy Romulus anyway.

Amusingly, the movie appears to visually confirm that it in fact can be a naturally occurring supernova, without any FTL elements to the explosion: in the mind meld zoom-in to the fearsome star, planet Romulus is seen whizzling by!

Sure, Mind Melds Need Not Be Taken Literally and all that. But it's still there, and consistent with everything: the CGI planet that later blows up is first glimpsed apparently orbiting the star that is about to blow up.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Timo said:
...Which should negate the heroes' apparent original plan of stalking the villain from the moon and then beaming aboard when he flies by

Since when was this the original plan?

The dialogue is extremely ambiguous, but Chekov outlines the plan starting with this:

Chekov:" Based on the fastest course from Wulcan, I have projected that Nero vill travel past Saturn. "
Nero passing Saturn would not be relevant unless Chekov were planning a drive-by shooting of sorts.

This never happens, of course: Nero is nowhere near Saturn when the plan actually swings to action. But Chekov's plan would no doubt be refined by his superiors, especially Kirk who knows about the advantages of the new transporter formula.

Timo said:
Apparently, it takes him (or that Ael character who seems to advise him) 25 years to figure it all out

There is no indication of this; for all we know it was figured out many years prior to 2258 but they had to wait until the right point in time.
Agreed. But one possible model would have Nero or Ael figuring it out gradually. If they did so instantaneously, why would Nero's crew be so skeptical when they do arrive at the correct space and time coordinates 25 years later?

The concept of Nero gradually becoming an expert in this particular temporal mechanics problem, but making so many mistakes along the way that his crew almost loses its faith on what he is doing, would appear to fit the events very well.

Timo said:
His mining rig is incapable of standing against even a single surprised Federation starship

Tell that to the crew of the Mayflower and the other surprised Federation starships destroyed at Vulcan.
I'm telling it to them. Apparently, cadet crews must really suck, to fare that much more poorly than Robau's crew!

Timo said:
If the star that goes kaboom is not Romulus' homestar

Clearly it is not. If it had been, there would have been no possibility of saving Romulus.
Why not? Spock only need arrive there before the star blows - it was a predicted event, after all. He just predicted wrong.

We know red matter can completely collapse planets with one droplet, slightly hurt mining rigs with a barrelful, open holes in space with both, and prevent already occurred supernovae from doing further harm. That's diverse enough that we could easily add "calming down a brewing supernova so that the star keeps shining for a few hundred million years more, or at least long enough for evacuation" to the list.

Also, see above for the amusing use of the Romulus CGI right next to the star that blows up...

Timo Saloniemi
 
He could accomplish a great deal. He can easily overwhelm any Starfleet vessel

But he cannot;

He did. Which led to a lot of 09 threads about how the hell a mining ship could be that tough. I am sure you remember them.

He wouldn't last for a week after he starts acting; indeed, he's brought down in mere hours when he does. If he wants to avenge himself upon Spock and Vulcan, there's no point in doing it piecemeal, and when the only Spock in the neighborhood is too young to comprehend.

If his ship is crippled, then no. He can't do much. First order of business is getting his ship underway and then repaired as best as he can. That is assuming he wasn't captured. Clearly in the comics that is what they are continuing with.

There is no reason to avenge himself upon either Spock or Vulcan. That was always a non-starter. It made no sense whatsoever.

Really, waiting for Spock is absolutely necessary for both practical and psychological reasons. So the only real question is the one you ask: how does Nero know to wait?

I don't buy the animus toward Spock or the desire to wait. He already has the means to kill whomever he wants.

And the answer may simply be, he hopes against hope, because there's nothing else for him in this world anyway.

He could save Romulus and give them the technical specs of his weapons, his computer technology, etc.

I'm not sure repairs would be a problem, really. Nero is riding a major industrial platform, with entire starships stored in her hangars. Self-repair might be a trivial matter of time.

Repair would be a big problem. He is riding a mining ship, not a mobile dry dock and repair ship. Two very different things, and very different sets of equipment.

It's difficult to exact vengeance with those!

Which is exactly what many of us said in threads in '09! It ought to be very hard to fight well in that vast tub built for mining operations. He should not have fought so well. And the armament of the ship wasn't red matter. He had a lot of missiles however.

Only if they knew the Narada was related to Romulans.

Apparently they did. Even if you think they surmised it later, it would still have the same effect. It is a revolutionary and absolutely game changing occurrence. This would have been a major historical event at the time. I cant imagine a larger manhunt and search than there would have been for that ship.

How so? Most things in Star Trek remain unnoticed until noticed; some even in areas where Starfleet supposedly is very active. Space is big and searching for things typically futile.

This is something massive, and that they are looking for. Their sensor range is measured in light years. It's very hard
to imagine a ship this massive staying anywhere near the location now known to Starfleet. Let alone going decades with no one ever picking it up anywhere. The comic answer is that the Klingons captured it. That is why it never shows up in the intervening years and why no one ever found it.

Amusingly, the movie appears to visually confirm that it in fact can be a naturally occurring supernova, without any FTL elements to the explosion: in the mind meld zoom-in to the fearsome star, planet Romulus is seen whizzling by!

And the "shock wave" traveling a tiny fraction of the speed of light. Apparently the whole galaxy was threatened by something that would have taken millions of years to slowly propagate through it. Have no fear though. The jellyfish can fly right through the planet shattering shock wave and "suck it back" to the point of origin. The actual shockwave will go backwards the way it came. Awesome!

Hahaha! I am not sure what we saw there actually counts as "naturally occuring". ;)

Sure, Mind Melds Need Not Be Taken Literally and all that. But it's still there, and consistent with everything: the CGI planet that later blows up is first glimpsed apparently orbiting the star that is about to blow up.

Timo Saloniemi

When Harve Bennett was asked what he thought of ST09 he said "they lost me when they put the grand canyon in Iowa". I don't take ST09 that seriously when it comes to geography, astronomy or stellar cartography.
 
That's why I said "still open".

To AirCommodore's point above about hiding Narada, even at 8km long, that's still a tiny needle in the vast haystack of space. Plus, I've always had the sense that most long-range detection of much smaller ships involves sensing their power sources or warp-fields. It seems like powering down would have allowed Narada to hide effectively, after all, Botany Bay sailed out of the core of the Federation for 200+ years at would have to have been a pretty good sublight speed without being detected.

One other thing, following the Kelvin's collision, it could have taken what seemed like Narada's relatively small crew 10-15 years to effectively repair the damage.

Our radar today could pick it up, albeit not from a very long range. 23rd century sensors should have had an easy time detecting it. They can sense objects from very long range, and this is something they are actually looking for.

Even with just life support operating, that is power being used. And they cannot well repair the ship without some power being expended for many years. This is one time where the comic makes a little sense. It wasn't found by Starfleet because the Klingons already found it, and brought it to Klingon space. Thus, all Starfleet searches come up empty.
 
Last edited:
When Harve Bennett was asked what he thought of ST09 he said "they lost me when they put the grand canyon in Iowa". I don't take ST09 that seriously when it comes to geography, astronomy or stellar cartography.

That is a rock quarry.
 
When Harve Bennett was asked what he thought of ST09 he said "they lost me when they put the grand canyon in Iowa". I don't take ST09 that seriously when it comes to geography, astronomy or stellar cartography.

That is a rock quarry.


Haha! Indeed. And one that is nowhere near Iowa! However I think 'ol Harve was being a bit sarcastic.
Perhaps just a bit, given that the Vermont granite quarry inserted into "Iowa" is only the tiniest fraction of the size of the Grand Canyon. Many of the limestone quarries which can be still be found in eastern Iowa are actually larger than what was pictured, in terms of surface area, but not so precipitously deep; it's not all that hard to understand the choice they made. Bottom line, though: citing Bennett in order to categorically discount geographic, astronomical or cartographic accuracy of anything should probably not have been your first choice (never mind that "ol' Harve" had previously made noises about suing the production, under the erroneous impression that his long-shelved Starfleet Academy script was being ripped off.)

He could accomplish a great deal. He can easily overwhelm any Starfleet vessel

But he cannot;

He did. Which led to a lot of 09 threads about how the hell a mining ship could be that tough. I am sure you remember them.
How can you be so sure, when you've only just arrived this year, yourself?
 
That is a rock quarry.


Haha! Indeed. And one that is nowhere near Iowa! However I think 'ol Harve was being a bit sarcastic.
Perhaps just a bit, given that the Vermont granite quarry inserted into "Iowa" is only the tiniest fraction of the size of the Grand Canyon. Many of the limestone quarries which can be still be found in eastern Iowa are actually larger than what was pictured, in terms of surface area, but not so precipitously deep; it's not all that hard to understand the choice they made. Bottom line, though: citing Bennett in order to categorically discount geographic, astronomical or cartographic accuracy of anything should probably not have been your first choice (never mind that "ol' Harve" had previously made noises about suing the production, under the erroneous impression that his long-shelved Starfleet Academy script was being ripped off.)

You are reacting to this as if you were part of the production team that scouted out the filming locations and you're offended by the slight. ;)

In any case, it's a great line and I used it for that reason. I don't understand the choice they made, actually. Beyond a desire to show a daredevil young Kirk, which could have been shown in many, many different ways. Why go to Vermont? I have no idea. Bakersfield CA was Iowa as well. The idea that the entire state of Iowa offers no location where someone could be a daredevil, so that you have to choose a cliff that doesn't exist there is not in any sense "understandable".

To see the film's plot, plausibility and cartographic errors you only have to watch the movie.

How can you be so sure, when you've only just arrived this year, yourself?

I didn't just arrive! I had a previous name whose password I have long forgotten. I have been on these boards a loooong time. ;)
 
Last edited:
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top