What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by The Overlord, Feb 25, 2013.

  1. dub

    dub Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Sep 13, 2012
    Location? What is this?
    ...and perhaps Mirror Data too instead of B4! ;)
  2. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    May 9, 2012
    The Enterprise's Restroom
    I agree that a previous effort could certainly hold some sway over whether people are interested in the current one. When Doctor Who was un-cancelled after it's unpopular 22nd season in 1985, ratings for Season 23 the following year were less than half of their previous level -- I don't blame Season 23 for that, I blame Season 22. There is also the factor of Enterprise being perceived as something of a failure on television at the time, which can't have impacted positively on "Nemesis" at all.

    It isn't a hard-and-fast rule, though. "The Final Frontier" was a failure at the box-office despite "The Voyage Home" being a smash hit. I think "Nemesis" faced a similar challenge. "The Final Frontier" was released at the same time we saw so many blockbuster movies (Batman, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Ghostbusters II) that it just couldn't compete, not actually being one of those blockbusters itself. IMO, "Nemesis" faced similar opposition from the likes of LOTR: The Two Towers and the (then) latest Star Wars prequel. Alongside an apparent general apathy with Star Trek among the public at the time, it didn't have a hope in hell of making an impact.

    Star Trek 2009 had the benefit of being released at a time sufficiently distanced from the bad karma associated with the TNG movies, and at a time when it could also reposition itself as a contender against blockbusters like those listed above. As much as the public had a fondness for the series, I don't think any of the Trek movies before 2009 were really in that kind of position. They were always little movies that punched above their weight (the TNG movies possibly even more so).
  3. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

    Aug 23, 2001
    Full of hot air.
    If a movie is good, people go and see it. If it's shit, they stay home. It's really that simple.

    Ultimately, the reason ST09 did as well as it did is because it is the best film of the bunch. There, I said it.
  4. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    May 9, 2012
    The Enterprise's Restroom
    ST09 did well because we got to see Young Uhura without her clothes on. The Final Frontier didn't do well... because we got to see Old Uhura without her clothes on.
  5. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Jan 30, 2001

    But the 2009 film did well because for the first time in a long time, it made Star Trek fun.
  6. StarCruiser

    StarCruiser Captain Captain

    Dec 26, 2002
    Houston, we have a problem...
    ^ This!

    Insurrection was a weak story and a weak film.

    Nemesis was a very bad story and un-entertaining - I almost walked out of the theater.

    I didn't even think of walking out of the theater for Final Frontier, and it wasn't that good either...
  7. ChristopherPike

    ChristopherPike Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Jan 13, 2006
    I'm afraid a few issues aside, I liked Nemesis enough to go see it more than once.

    Well, there's only one... Yes, I remember few members in the audience on those occasions too.

    Insurrection was the film I thought wasn't a strong enough follow up to First Contact. Any harder edge to it got sugar coated. Nemesis had that mid-to-late 90s darkness going on for the film to have been reasonably popular, had it arrived sooner. By 2002 we had more than enough darkness to be going on with, in real life.

    They're the right films, in the wrong order.
  8. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

    Oct 8, 2005
    Los Angeles, California
    Insurrection obviously hurt the movie series. It followed the previous film, a hit, by increasing the budget and decreasing the box office. This led Paramount to budget Nemesis at ten million less than Insurrection (the first time since The Wrath of Khan that an installment in the franchise cost less than its predecessor).

    Still, Nemesis was made, so Insurrection obviously didn't kill the TNG movie series. Nemesis did that. Clearly, they wanted to make another movie -- the tagline, after all, was "A Generation's Final Journey Begins" -- but neither the box office nor the reviews warranted another movie. And that was that.
  9. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Aug 20, 2009
    Partially correct, Insurrection possessed a very interesting story and had some nice ethical questions for our heroes. I liked the way that (probably unintentionally) it wasn't clear who the "good guys" were, who you were supposed to be rooting for.

    Execution of this story, transferring it onto the screen, was poorly done.

  10. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    May 24, 2006
    Escaped from Delta Vega
    You are not kidding!
  11. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Jul 6, 2011
    Why are we so concerned about "killing the franchise?" When did we become studio executives and bean counters?

    Watch the movies. Which one was more entertaining and why?

    My money is on Insurrection. "Radiations to help billions" like heating homes and driving cars in today's world. "On earth, petroleum turned petty thugs into world leaders." Our relationship with the Middle East as the United States. We are the bad guys because, in the real world, we wouldn't blink at giving smallpox to the Indians in order to build a railroad.

    Geordi has eyes, for cry out loud. Disease--pick one--is all gone. It's not just a fountain-of-youth. We'll have our lifespans doubled. And all we have to do is kill, or move, these 600 people. And Picard continues to hold the Federation ideals. I don't care where it falls in the universe or the nitpickers of continuity. It is a good story.

    The only thing I don't like is how happy the movie is, how cheesy. And I have yet to mention how much money it made or the demo that it hit.

    The older I get, the better the movie is. Our job is to be entertained, not keep the franchise alive. Enjoy each movie or series like it's the last one they will do. And be brutal about what they do right and what they do wrong.
  12. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

    Dec 2, 2001
    Hotel Transylvania
    I don't understand why Paramount thought the stupid humor in Insurrection was a good idea after TFF. It was like they wanted it to fail.
  13. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Jul 6, 2011
    What stupid humor? Could you give examples? I think it's Frakes direction, not in the script. And how do you know the studio was responsible for it?
  14. USS Firefly

    USS Firefly Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Jan 7, 2013
    The Data playing with the kid was pretty bad humor, or the boobs joke.
  15. ALF

    ALF Commodore Commodore

    Mar 12, 2005
    Insurrection: Don't think any of the jokes were in the least bit funny and that was the problem. There was an effort to cleanse away the serious and dark tone of First Contact but it went too far and the late 1990s were dark times and dark films were successful.

    The only high point of Insurrection are the action scenes. The fight in the briar patch is pretty decent. And the same for Nemesis, the Scimitar vs. the two Rommie ships and the Enterprise E was worth the admission.

    I recall seeing a lot of unhappy faces on fans' faces walking out at the end of Insurrection's premiere. It was brutal. My roommate and I convinced our other roommate to go to see a Trek movie for the first time and on the basis that First Contact rocked, we were sure the same would be true for this one. Afterwards she looked at us and said, "What the fuck, you guys?" The most entertaining element of the film for her was that hamster pet thing Data's friend had.

    The funniest thing about Star Trek: Insurrection is the unproven rumor that the studio wanted to include the number in the name and Patrick Stewart pointed out to them that it would sound like the title of a pron flick: Star Trek Nine Inch Erection!! :guffaw:

    And on a final note, the recent Star Trek TNG XXX porn had a more interesting story than either Insurrection or Nemesis combined.

    Ummm... a few million Enterprise fans would like to have a word with you! ;) I watched each episode like it was the last... and then, one day in 2005 it was the last.

    Some Trek has aged better than others... but the I-X films are terrific overall. I just rewatched them all recently and found something new to appreciate in all of them.
  16. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

    Feb 12, 2011
    Taking up space
    Insurrection was the tailspin, and Nemesis was the franchise smashing into the ground.
  17. Gaith

    Gaith Vice Admiral Admiral

    May 11, 2008
    San Francisco, CA
    I wish I could agree... but if it only takes a few days for Geordi to grow eyes, why can't spas and resorts be set up for the sick elsewhere on the planet?

    Neither of those are anywhere near as bad as Data the flotational device.

    ... And don't they have sophisticated, all-natural bosom maintenance in the future? If not, why are scientists puttering around building starships?! :p
  18. starburst

    starburst Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Mar 8, 2007
    They probably did with the understanding it did not impact the Ba'ku, it is probably what they were implying with Quark showing up in a deleted scene.

    I think the whole problem was the Son'a, during the movie they mentioned for them (or at least a great many of them) it was too late and seeming they were the ones who wanted the planet (and Revenge) that was the only option to them.
  19. Peach Wookiee

    Peach Wookiee Cuddly Mod of Doom Moderator

    May 12, 2001
    Peach Wookiee
    The Data playing with kids wasn't bad, IMO... but the boob joke, Worf with the pimples... yeeeah... awkward.
  20. Galileo7

    Galileo7 Commodore Commodore

    Sep 19, 2010
    east coast U.S.
    Agree, Insurrection was no more than a weak television episode and not worthy of a movie.