Honestly, I could do with less super powered alien beings claiming to be gods. TOS was bad enough but TNG made it worse.
What story elements would you remove or just forget exist from canon?
- Thread starter Citiprime
- Start date
Refresh my memory...when did TNG do it outside of Q claiming to be God in Tapestry? I don't recall anyone else claiming to be gods.
Q was the worse.
You aren't answering my question. Q claimed to be a god only once IIRC. I've done multiple rewatches of TNG, and the only time I can think of where someone claimed to be a deity, was Q in Tapestry.
Okay, you mean to say you dislike the presence of an being with "god-like" powers. Q showed up only eight times in all of TNG.
Okay, you mean to say you dislike the presence of an being with "god-like" powers. Q showed up only eight times in all of TNG.
Yes, I dislike god like beings in Trek. Q makes it worse. I know TOS started it but it's less appealing as it went on.
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I actually thought you could of used some of them to create interesting interactions, since it's possible the Organians and Q have different agendas. It might be interesting if some of the "god-ish" level races came into conflict, and Starfleet was caught in the middle. One of the most interesting scenes in season 2 of TNG is when Guinan and Q interact, and Q (who claims to be omnipotent) did not detect Guinan until she comes out from behind the bar, and Guinan seems to indicate she's capable of defending herself from Q. It's never explained or followed-up on, but it's interesting to speculate about something like that. Or how would the Prophets react to it if Q really started screwing around with Sisko and their plans for him?
For example, DS9 had the Khitomer Accords collapse in the fourth season and the Klingons and Federation go towards open conflict. It might have been an interesting story aspect if you touch on what the Organians thought about it, since they had forced peace on both sides about a century before. Although, admittedly, Star Trek VI never mentions the Organians either.
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I never counted them, but I have the feeling in TOS the crew met more 'god-like' races (or at least races that seemed millennia ahead of the Federation) than in later series. The Organians, Trelane, Greek Gods, Arretans, to name just a few. It seems later series used the concept a bit more sparingly, though Q was very persistent in appearing again and again. And yes, while it can be used for some good stories, the trope got old- as any trope does when overused.
I think you can work around this and it can make some unique story challengers, but no one having seen a Romulan before "Balance of Terror."
Also the Prophets bodysnatching Sarah so she can conceive Ben. That's horrible and he didn't need to be Space Jesus to fulfill his role of throwing a book down a hole anyway.
Also the Prophets bodysnatching Sarah so she can conceive Ben. That's horrible and he didn't need to be Space Jesus to fulfill his role of throwing a book down a hole anyway.
I actually liked that about TOS, there was a sense that mankind was more of a middling race and you were just as liable to come across someone more advanced as more primitive.
Yes, I can see how it made the TOS universe seem a bit broader and more adventurous.
But having our heroes meet a god-like race limits the number of narrative options significantly. So it's a trope that can grow tired if not used wisely and sparingly. I think TNG recognized this and turned the dial down a bit.
One I just thought of ...
[Spoiler for the end of Star Trek: Picard season 1]
It adds absolutely NOTHING to the character. The writing for it negates any exploration of what it might mean almost immediately, since we're told that there's no real physical difference between the old version and the new artificial version. There's no metaphysical questioning of whether the character is a copy of the original, or really the original, or any personal struggle about it. They just don't even want to go there with it. It's used solely as a plot device to get the writers out of the hole of putting the character in danger for a will they or won't they survive story arc, and the way it's handled makes the whole thing feel really hollow.
[Spoiler for the end of Star Trek: Picard season 1]
Picard being transferred into an android body.
It adds absolutely NOTHING to the character. The writing for it negates any exploration of what it might mean almost immediately, since we're told that there's no real physical difference between the old version and the new artificial version. There's no metaphysical questioning of whether the character is a copy of the original, or really the original, or any personal struggle about it. They just don't even want to go there with it. It's used solely as a plot device to get the writers out of the hole of putting the character in danger for a will they or won't they survive story arc, and the way it's handled makes the whole thing feel really hollow.
^ Well, they had to address Picard's Irumodic Syndrome somehow. Either it kills him, or he gets a new body. Seems simple enough. 
That actually reminds me of the old Alan Dean Foster story "Glory Lane". For most of the book, the human protagonists keep running into more and more advanced species, until they reach ones with practically godlike capabilities... but these last ones declare that humanity may be underdeveloped, but there's something special about us for all that. I think that's us in Trek in a nutshell... the Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites are all more advanced than us, but we were the glue that put the Federation together.
My list, and apologies for some overlaps:
If I recall, Roddenberry once entertained the notion of galactic beaming in lieu of a starship - found it: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Transporter
It's an interesting factoid that would make for better use in a parallel or alternate timeline. But they were right to nix it, all the adventure while heading to the destination is eliminated and plot ideas for stories would become very stale very quickly.
Discovery's war was in season 1, which was such a mess behind the scenes that arguably didn't need to be. It's not the idea but the execution that fails (IMHO, YMMV), though if it takes place in the Kelvin universe then it's not as bad, and the redesign of the make-up ceases to be any issue.
Definitely, nix time travel. TOS did it to save money and/or to joke it up. For obvious reasons they've dated the worst. TNG avoided it. VOY turns the trope into a caricature, all while managing to get from the delta quadrant to Earth and then back to where they started.
Khan stuff - not as much removing it, it's easier to forget if one glosses over certain lines of dialogue or set props: I wish early TOS decided on a timeline long before it had. Squire of Gothos posits the crew being in the far-flung future (~900 years), and Space Seed says "200 years" outright. yes, TOS was still finding itself, but with all those destroyed records, they could easily have been more ambiguous with dating. Noting Earth's development, at least in our universe and not Star Treks, the 1990s would be too early a time for 30-something Khan to take power, though he would have been a sweet sweet guest star in "Thirtysomething", I'd guess.
Season 2 TNG bringing up the warp core breach said a highly improbable set of circumstances had to happen for it to happen, as if the writers were trying to prevent future scripts from using the same trope. Um, it didn't work.
Using the MC Escher idea for the Borg may have led to the same result of a broken down portion of the Collective, but an hour to change character traits for the sake of the plot rather than the plot genuinely giving characters epiphanies was hard to swallow. Guinan was swayed way too easily, but she was already copping it in "Q Who" when she said that one day they might be able to establish a relationship. Oh goody, rubber-stamp mode. It worked for the Klingons so let's make enemies, old and new, all sing songs and pass daffodils along while singing acid rock anthems. The crew of the NCC-1701-H might for one of them, but all - during TNG's final couple of seasons and a movie?
They explored Data way too often and oversimplified issues. On top of that, Picard threatens Data's "life" with disassembly in more episodes than he does threatening to kill a crewmember in any episode that isn't in the 1996 movie when he spouts how killing Borgified crew is somehow in their best interests... (I suppose the idea is to show Picard's obsession clouding his judgment to an extreme since he was saved, but at best the notion falls flat.)
TMP and STV I like, in terms of being in their own universe, but II-IV and VI make an incredible story arc spanning multiple movies that was ahead of its time.
Speaking of, STIV has some great plot elements and dialogue hinting at some great stuff, but the emphasis on "fish out of water comedy" would do V-IX a complete disservice; IV's comedy arguably works because the crew are out of their element. Every later attempt turns them into buffoons. Even Kirk wasn't spared. For IV, forget the comedy show and stick to the political drama and intrigue, since a Federation member screaming "you pompous ass" ties into VI's themes directly (and it's amazing Gene didn't object to that line for the same reasons he hated VI, and not entirely wrongly so...) then again, how Kirk would have to save 23rd century Earth to justify the iconic line from VI would be a different story.
X deserves its own thread but I maintain that a few minor rewrites would have turned a clunker into a classic. The Reman aspect is one that definitely should not have been written but they wanted to over-complicate Picard's alleged nemesis (Shinzon).
III should dismiss the issue of protomatter and David's methods very quickly, as the scene is there solely to ding David with. Seems a bit unfair, especially given that the torpedo was not used on a planet, but on a much smaller spaceship that has manufactured components and energy production that no planet would naturally have. The scientists kept blabbling in II about the conditions in which the planet must be in - barren rock, no life, etc, and to bore everyone with the completely litany of reasons when "any life on a planet would be wiped out" is more than sufficient. Either which way, the use of Reliant as accidental "not a planet" to detonate it on adds so many variables that it's completely irrational for Saavik or anyone to immediately gaslight and castigate him with that pathetic guilt trip, especially with the whole of the Genesis Cave being stable for far longer than the Genesis Planet held up. As McCoy might say, it's "Bull."
Conversely,
a TNG episode explaining why nobody could fire while cloaked was abandoned; Chang's ship prototype halting all subsequent research would be nice. Not a direct link but some dialogue thrown on on the side as Worf blabbles to Geordi or Scotty or Fred about developments, why not. It's easy enough to guess that a critical design flaw perceived kept them from exploring the concept more.
Maybe to explain transwarp drive too, though it was probably retooled and integrated into future class starships and honed from there, which explains why 1701-D is faster than 1701, etc.
If I recall, Roddenberry once entertained the notion of galactic beaming in lieu of a starship - found it: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Transporter
It's an interesting factoid that would make for better use in a parallel or alternate timeline. But they were right to nix it, all the adventure while heading to the destination is eliminated and plot ideas for stories would become very stale very quickly.
Discovery's war was in season 1, which was such a mess behind the scenes that arguably didn't need to be. It's not the idea but the execution that fails (IMHO, YMMV), though if it takes place in the Kelvin universe then it's not as bad, and the redesign of the make-up ceases to be any issue.
Definitely, nix time travel. TOS did it to save money and/or to joke it up. For obvious reasons they've dated the worst. TNG avoided it. VOY turns the trope into a caricature, all while managing to get from the delta quadrant to Earth and then back to where they started.
Khan stuff - not as much removing it, it's easier to forget if one glosses over certain lines of dialogue or set props: I wish early TOS decided on a timeline long before it had. Squire of Gothos posits the crew being in the far-flung future (~900 years), and Space Seed says "200 years" outright. yes, TOS was still finding itself, but with all those destroyed records, they could easily have been more ambiguous with dating. Noting Earth's development, at least in our universe and not Star Treks, the 1990s would be too early a time for 30-something Khan to take power, though he would have been a sweet sweet guest star in "Thirtysomething", I'd guess.
Season 2 TNG bringing up the warp core breach said a highly improbable set of circumstances had to happen for it to happen, as if the writers were trying to prevent future scripts from using the same trope. Um, it didn't work.
Using the MC Escher idea for the Borg may have led to the same result of a broken down portion of the Collective, but an hour to change character traits for the sake of the plot rather than the plot genuinely giving characters epiphanies was hard to swallow. Guinan was swayed way too easily, but she was already copping it in "Q Who" when she said that one day they might be able to establish a relationship. Oh goody, rubber-stamp mode. It worked for the Klingons so let's make enemies, old and new, all sing songs and pass daffodils along while singing acid rock anthems. The crew of the NCC-1701-H might for one of them, but all - during TNG's final couple of seasons and a movie?
They explored Data way too often and oversimplified issues. On top of that, Picard threatens Data's "life" with disassembly in more episodes than he does threatening to kill a crewmember in any episode that isn't in the 1996 movie when he spouts how killing Borgified crew is somehow in their best interests... (I suppose the idea is to show Picard's obsession clouding his judgment to an extreme since he was saved, but at best the notion falls flat.)
TMP and STV I like, in terms of being in their own universe, but II-IV and VI make an incredible story arc spanning multiple movies that was ahead of its time.
Speaking of, STIV has some great plot elements and dialogue hinting at some great stuff, but the emphasis on "fish out of water comedy" would do V-IX a complete disservice; IV's comedy arguably works because the crew are out of their element. Every later attempt turns them into buffoons. Even Kirk wasn't spared. For IV, forget the comedy show and stick to the political drama and intrigue, since a Federation member screaming "you pompous ass" ties into VI's themes directly (and it's amazing Gene didn't object to that line for the same reasons he hated VI, and not entirely wrongly so...) then again, how Kirk would have to save 23rd century Earth to justify the iconic line from VI would be a different story.
X deserves its own thread but I maintain that a few minor rewrites would have turned a clunker into a classic. The Reman aspect is one that definitely should not have been written but they wanted to over-complicate Picard's alleged nemesis (Shinzon).
III should dismiss the issue of protomatter and David's methods very quickly, as the scene is there solely to ding David with. Seems a bit unfair, especially given that the torpedo was not used on a planet, but on a much smaller spaceship that has manufactured components and energy production that no planet would naturally have. The scientists kept blabbling in II about the conditions in which the planet must be in - barren rock, no life, etc, and to bore everyone with the completely litany of reasons when "any life on a planet would be wiped out" is more than sufficient. Either which way, the use of Reliant as accidental "not a planet" to detonate it on adds so many variables that it's completely irrational for Saavik or anyone to immediately gaslight and castigate him with that pathetic guilt trip, especially with the whole of the Genesis Cave being stable for far longer than the Genesis Planet held up. As McCoy might say, it's "Bull."
Conversely,
a TNG episode explaining why nobody could fire while cloaked was abandoned; Chang's ship prototype halting all subsequent research would be nice. Not a direct link but some dialogue thrown on on the side as Worf blabbles to Geordi or Scotty or Fred about developments, why not. It's easy enough to guess that a critical design flaw perceived kept them from exploring the concept more.
Maybe to explain transwarp drive too, though it was probably retooled and integrated into future class starships and honed from there, which explains why 1701-D is faster than 1701, etc.
^ Well, they had to address Picard's Irumodic Syndrome somehow. Either it kills him, or he gets a new body. Seems simple enough.
Wasn't that just one of Q's more subtle tricks that his left hand put out, while his right one was guiding him to the reason for the temporal anomaly that led to humanity not being erased from history and all that?
No, Picard's affliction was definitely real. It was killing him in PIC season 1.
I think once they’ve encountered a superior race it isn’t too much of a stretch to just avoid that territory, but the small local galactic space everyone is crammed into from TNG onwards sort of precludes that.
They probably should have just ignored the Irumodic Syndrome as something Q dreamed up for “All Good Things”.^ Well, they had to address Picard's Irumodic Syndrome somehow. Either it kills him, or he gets a new body. Seems simple enough.
TNG avoided time travel???? Really??? Let's take a look at TNG episodes that dealt with time travel...
"We'll Always Have Paris"
"Time Squared"
"Yesterday's Enterprise"
"Captain's Holiday"
"A Matter Of Time"
"Cause And Effect"
"Time's Arrow"
"Time's Arrow, Part II"
"Tapestry" (I will admit this could have been a Q fantasy, so this is up in the air.)
"Timescape"
"All Good Things..." (Same as "Tapestry".)
By contrast, TOS...
"TOMORROW IS YESTERDAY"
"THE CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER"
"ASSIGNMENT: EARTH"
"ALL OUR YESTERDAYS"
And DS9...
"PAST TENSE, PART I"
'PAST TENSE, PART II"
"VISIONARY"
"THE VISITOR"
"LITTLE GREEN MEN"
"ACCESSION"
"TRIALS AND TRIBBLE-ATIONS"
"CHILDREN OF TIME"
"TIME'S ORPHAN"
Agreed that VOYAGER went completely overboard with time travel stories, but TNG did as many as TOS and DS9... combined. They certainly did not avoid time travel.
And regarding Picard threatening to disassemble Data, except in "Clues" when he said Starfleet would likely have him stripped to his wires to find the truth, when did he ever threaten Data with such a thing?
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