What should change about the possible new Star Trek Experience?

[CaptainHawk1]

I'm never quite sure what people mean when they say more family-friendly. Quark's always had families in there with children of every age. There was also the Federation side of the restaurant, too, which had any number of children present. This Federation side, in a new venue could be a more TOS themed part of the restaurant or as some others have mentioned, something that looks more like Ten-forward.

My guess is that the current owners will try to duplicate what already existed in the old venue but with technology updates (and in the case of the Klingon Encounter, an updated film). The reasons for this are that the set pieces already exist so that would be a way to cut expenses. If this new Experience takes off, I'm sure we can expect add-ons. Again, to cut costs, importing part of the Exhibition makes sense to me. We'll see.

I'll explain to you what I mean by more family friendly (as I said the same thing): the problem with taking kids to the Experience is that they get bored very quickly. IIRC don't both rides have height requirements, too? Regardless of that, two rides are not enough to keep kids entertained for any length of time. My kids can eat anywhere, Quark's ain't doing much for them. It needs to be more like Disney and less like Las Vegas. Hell, make it more like Chuck E. Cheese. I've been to the Experience more than 50 times in my five years here and I never spend more than a couple of hours there and if I went with my kids (who are now getting old enough to go) it would only be if they could spend a day there without getting bored. The Experience should be an all day adventure IMHO for the whole family.

^^^ Those are my thoughts as well. Fremont Street, it seems, would love to have us and would value us the way the new LV Hilton management seems incapable of doing. I think their willingness to accomodate us by recreating STTE should be rewarded.

I am planning to attend a mass Vegas-area fan/STTE refugee viewing of the new film (Darren benjamin is planning this) at the Palms at midnight 050809. I have a choice between staying at the Palms to make that viewing convenient or staying at a hotel adjacent to Neonopolis and the new STTE. I'm leaning heavily toward staying on Fremont Street.

As an aside, do any Vegas locals (or former locals... looking at you, Biggshow) know which hotel is actually physically closest to the new STTE location?

Wherever I choose to stay on Fremont Street, I'm gonna make damned good and sure they know what brought me to town and that I will be back... often!

I don't think that people realize this but before the Experience was at the Hilton, the conventions used to be at the Plaza Hotel at the West End of the Fremont Street Experience. Truthfully speaking, Downtown is a lot easier to get in and out of than the Paradise/Sahara location of the Hilton and the Plaza would be a hell of a lot cheaper to have a convention at than the hIlton (not that Creation would lower their prices or anything).

Another thing is that when it was at the Hiton it was isolated. Oh, sure you could pay to get on the stupid monorail and go other places on the strip but downtown is great because you just walk out of Neonoplois and you've got the entire Fremont St. experince to enjoy.


Listen to me... I'm gushing like the fucking mayor.

 

[SFRabid]

It felt too crowded to me. On DS9 Quark's always had an open look. When I went last year the space was too small and ceiling too low. I felt like I was in Quark's Cave.

 

[Dale]

You make some good points, CaptainHawk, but I'd be afraid of losing the authentic atmosphere to a bunch of lightweight, carnival attraction-type rides and games. They weren't building an amusement park as much as they were an as-real-as-possible experience of the Star Trek universe... that's why the two rides maintained the conceit that what you saw was really happening and why the characters always maintained the illusion that they were of and from the real Star Trek universe. While I felt that STTE as it existed at the Hilton was fairly accessible to kids, it was not for young kids as much as it was for older kids - and adults - who were dyed-in-the-wool Trek fans. Vegas in and of itself is not particularly child-friendly. Young children were not their primary audience... and despite the fact that so many of us lingered there all day (and in my and many other cases even took three and four day vacations spent almost entirely within the confines of the Experience), it was never envisioned as a destination in and of itself, but as a part-day attraction.

As for Quark's... it was primarily a bar and as such not that appropriate for kids. The exterior seating was much more open and family-friendly but inside the recreated Quark's set the atmosphere was very much that of a bar. I agree with you, SFRabid, that it wasn't a perfect recreation of Quark's and was a bit more claustrophobic than the two-story TV version, but I thought they did a fine job and it ended up being my favorite place in the Experience, in Vegas and on Earth, frankly.

If the new Experience manages to replicate the atmosphere of the old Quark's, I for one will be a happy camper. I hold no illusion that the rest of the attraction will be as visually stunning as what was custom-built at the Hilton. I frankly expect something less than what I remember.

 

[Biggshow]

Lois and Gerry and Francine and spent a great deal of the last days of the Experience coming up with ways of building it somewhere else. We basically came up with a two-story Quark's and Promenade (the area behind the DS9 windows could be used as storage) on one side and a Federation style restaurant and museum on the other side (the restaurant on the ground floor and the museum accessed through the "holodecks" on the upper floor of Quark's). The place fit into what we invisioned as the corner of a building (I think we were thinking of how to add it to Planet Hollywood). No rides in that but we figured we could open that version of The Experience for about $10 million. And since we drew the rough plans up on cocktail napkins, it was bound to be a success.

I think the demographic that they were aiming for (and are aiming for) were the infamous 18-30 year olds and Boomers that grew up on Trek. St, for better or worse, has always been a PG or PG-13 entertainment.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I just hope it doesn't change to reflect the new movie too much.
I still want to be able to go there and have a few drinks.

They drank like fish in TOS! Remember Scotty? Ah, for the olden days when alcoholism was funny...

I'll probably be tarred and feathered for this (all in a day's work for a Vorta ) but I'd like the new Experience to embrace the best of all the Treks, using a "time travel" metaphor to pass through distinct "eras" - 22nd C ENT, 23rd C TOS (TV series and movie, deftly blended), 24th C TNG-DS9-VOY. And for fun, they could get creative with a far-future scenario at the end of the journey.

The Experience should be an all day adventure IMHO for the whole family.

I agree - it should be a journey you can take through various scenarios, which could be conveyed via theme park style rides, movie theaters (and not just for the actual movies - how about some original content filmed expressly for the Experience?), via restaurants/bars (Quark's, the "Tribbles" bar, etc) or just environments - various planets and places - that you walk through and look at. They could have a Dabo wheel for real gambling and stores selling various stuff.

I've never been to the Experience, so I'm probably envisioning something far more grandiose than the original.

 

[azebelys]

I disagree that the experience should be more family friendly, after all, its purpose built for fans of star trek. And its in Las Vegas, hardly the most family friendly place to go on holiday. on the occasions i've been there, its been with a fellow trekkie so we had no problem spending all day there. i can see why if you were there with family you would them to feel more involved, but personally i wouldn't expect them to come and indulge in my interests when there plenty of other things to do.

I dont think making it family friendly would improve it, but at the same time i dont think it would ruin it either. to me though, it would just be an unneccesary expense in a difficult financial climate, when the money could be better spent towards say building another ride

 

[LutherSloan]

Most people will tell you now that Vegas is no longer the kind of place you can take your kids for a vacation. It used to be in the '90s, but not anymore. From what I can tell the most family-friendly hotels left are the Excalibur and Circus Circus, but they are both old in comparison to the rest of the strip. I'm pretty sure Treasure Island is completely different than it used to be, moving away from being family friendly to try and attract the older crowd.

I also have to echo the same comments above, about the fact that you can't really make STTE kid-friendly enough without destroying the authenticity. I agree they should probably add some things for kids, but not have them take over the entire thing.

 

[CaptainHawk1]

I disagree that the experience should be more family friendly, after all, its purpose built for fans of star trek. And its in Las Vegas, hardly the most family friendly place to go on holiday. on the occasions i've been there, its been with a fellow trekkie so we had no problem spending all day there. i can see why if you were there with family you would them to feel more involved, but personally i wouldn't expect them to come and indulge in my interests when there plenty of other things to do.

I dont think making it family friendly would improve it, but at the same time i dont think it would ruin it either. to me though, it would just be an unneccesary expense in a difficult financial climate, when the money could be better spent towards say building another ride

I'm not going argue about Vegas not being kid-friendly anymore because it isn't the way it was 10 years ago, but The Experience wasn't built exclusively for Trek fans because we simply don't make up enough of the population for that type of investment to be successful.

The idea of the Experience was to make it accessible to all, Trek fans or not, while remaining true to Trek. Kind of like the new movie.

If the idea was, as suggested, to target the 18-30 crowd (which I doubt because they don't have any money) in 1997 those people now are 30 - 42 and have families (and more money). Wouldn't it seem to make sense to include kids in the plans?

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to say that it's not necessary for the attraction to appeal to kids because it hasn't before and Vegas in general isn't kid friendly anymore.

 

[Voyager]

here is a thought: instead of basing the new experience round DS9 like the old one. why not try something different? like maybe basing it in san fransico at Starfleet headquarters/starfleet academy. that way the whole experience could be to act as though we are new cadets at the academy. they could incorparate sisco's dads restaurant into it and the bar from Enterprise (cant remember its name)

you mean "ten-forward"

 

[azebelys]

no, actually i mean the bar from enterprise the TV show, not from TNG. The one that Archer goes in, and gets into a fight. i havent watched enterprise enough times to know what its called

 

[azebelys]

Captain Hawk

I think maybe we have to agree to disagree here. one think i think worth considering is that the experience is being built in the least child friendly part of town, because in my memory, Freemont is very much an adult playground.

Also, with the experience being open to all, i agree in part and disagree in part. the fact is that to non trekkies, star trek is very geeky, and (wrongly!!!) a bit sad. the average public aren't going to shell out the kind of prices the experience charged to have the bridge pictures taken, go on the rides, and see the museum. they might go and get a warp core breach in quarks, but i cant really remember bumping into anyone in the experience that wasnt pretty much a die hard fan.

Saying that the numbers wouldnt be high enough to aim it at just fans seems a bit strange to me. The original experience had 11 very succesfull years at the hilton, and didnt close due to visitor numbers, more that because the hilton wanted it out or wanted more rent (depending on which story you believe).

Like i said before, making it kid friendly wouldnt ruin it at all, but if they were to do that, it would be very costly. I dont have any children myself, but from what i'm told, it isnt easy to keep children entertained for long periods of time so there would have to be a lot added to do this. and in the current financial climate, that would be huge risk, and one that in IMO isnt worth taking - but i've been wrong before, so who knows?!?

 

[Temis the Vorta]

And its in Las Vegas, hardly the most family friendly place to go on holiday.

It's cleaned up its act a lot now - and the change has been in place for a long time, at least 20 years if not more. I can vaguely remember the olden days when it was different. Their strategy is aimed at attracting more of the family crowd; it just makes good business sense. Amazingly enough, there's a limited market for out and out sleaze.

Star Trek is "family friendly" in the sense that it's on mainstream TV and in the mainstream movie market. I doubt we'd ever see Star Trek on HBO or an R-rated Star Trek movie. So to be sleazy in the old time Las Vegas sense would be good neither for Las Vegas or for Star Trek.

But by family friendly, I mean no drunken hookers baring their breasts on the strip. I don't mean that you need to make the place look like Chuck E Cheese.

 

[Biggshow]

Also, with the experience being open to all, i agree in part and disagree in part. the fact is that to non trekkies, star trek is very geeky, and (wrongly!!!) a bit sad. the average public aren't going to shell out the kind of prices the experience charged to have the bridge pictures taken, go on the rides, and see the museum. they might go and get a warp core breach in quarks, but i cant really remember bumping into anyone in the experience that wasnt pretty much a die hard fan.

Back when I was a Klingon...

One of the things that we always tried to impress upon management with varying degrees of success is that Trekkies bring their non-Trekkie friends to STTE. At any given table, especially if there was a convention in town, there would be one Trekkie and three non-Trekkies. A very good friend of mine brought her uber-non-Trekkie sister to the place. She had so much fun that the next night, after an hour of hitting the Strip and more trendy joints, she asked to go back to Quark's.

One idea that we tried to get management to implement was some kind of frequent flyer/loyalty card for people who made multiple trips to the Experience. The idea was, as with all these kinds of things, that loyal customers should be rewarded. It didn't hurt that our loyal customers would also bring their not-so-loyal friends. The ferengi influence is everywhere...

Bottom-line is good customer service and a fun environment will make believers out of anyone.

 

[azebelys]

Also, with the experience being open to all, i agree in part and disagree in part. the fact is that to non trekkies, star trek is very geeky, and (wrongly!!!) a bit sad. the average public aren't going to shell out the kind of prices the experience charged to have the bridge pictures taken, go on the rides, and see the museum. they might go and get a warp core breach in quarks, but i cant really remember bumping into anyone in the experience that wasnt pretty much a die hard fan.

Back when I was a Klingon...

One of the things that we always tried to impress upon management with varying degrees of success is that Trekkies bring their non-Trekkie friends to STTE. At any given table, especially if there was a convention in town, there would be one Trekkie and three non-Trekkies. A very good friend of mine brought her uber-non-Trekkie sister to the place. She had so much fun that the next night, after an hour of hitting the Strip and more trendy joints, she asked to go back to Quark's.

Doesnt this kinda prove my point? Quarks i will happily agree is welcoming to all. the atmosphere in there even for non trekkies is great. but did this non treekie friend ever say that they wanted to go back the experience, pay the admission, and see the museum again/do the rides again?

 

[CaptainHawk1]

Captain Hawk

I think maybe we have to agree to disagree here. one think i think worth considering is that the experience is being built in the least child friendly part of town, because in my memory, Freemont is very much an adult playground.

Well, you're dead wrong on this but you don't live here so I'm not surprised. The Fremont Street Experience is quite family friendly and Neonopolis was specifically conceived of to bring in visitors of all ages. Until recently it had both a megaplex movie theater and a Jillians (not sure if the theater is still there).

Also, with the experience being open to all, i agree in part and disagree in part. the fact is that to non trekkies, star trek is very geeky, and (wrongly!!!) a bit sad. the average public aren't going to shell out the kind of prices the experience charged to have the bridge pictures taken, go on the rides, and see the museum. they might go and get a warp core breach in quarks, but i cant really remember bumping into anyone in the experience that wasnt pretty much a die hard fan.

Saying that the numbers wouldnt be high enough to aim it at just fans seems a bit strange to me. The original experience had 11 very succesfull years at the hilton, and didnt close due to visitor numbers, more that because the hilton wanted it out or wanted more rent (depending on which story you believe).

Do you honestly believe that the Experience survived and thrived for 11 years because of Trek fans exclusively. No offense, but that's absolutely goofy.

Trek fans in general tend to have a completely exaggerated sense of their own importance to the franchise and I blame Bjo Trimble for this. The fact is that die-hard Trek fans like us who invest time and money into the franchise make up a scant 2% of the average audience for Trek.

Simply put, we're not that important and we certainly couldn't sustain a multi-million dollar Las Vegas attraction 365 days a year for 11 years. And that 2% is misleading in itself because of that 2%, how many have actually gone to Las Vegas to the Experience? I'm willing to bet that it's far less than half of that 2%.

As Bigg Show pointed out the amount of non-trekkies far outweighed the amount of trekkies because of the trekkie who brought his party of non-trekkie friends. Not for nothing, and I noticed this all the time, there were several people always there who weren't Trek fans but thought it would be fun to go anyway and there were also parents there that weren't fans but thought their kids would enjoy it. I'd see it all the time and I would try to recruit these non-trekkies over to the darkside that is trek fandom.

The problem with Trek fans as I see it (and this discussion perfectly amplifies this point) is that they want to have exclusivity over Trek to the exclusion of all others. A lot of people (trekkies) have this notion Star Trek is only for the "real fans" and if you aren't a real fan then it's your fault if what I like doesn't appeal to you. This attitude doesn't help the franchise stay alive nor does it encourage an enterprise like the Experience to be successful. The Experience made a point to make Trek accessible for all audiences because it was in their best interest financially. I simply think that the new location gives them an oppotunity to take it a step further.

***RANT ALERT!!!***

Again, I'm sick and tired of hearing about the high price of the Experience. Doesn't anyone know how to use the damned Internet to find a better deal? Not only that, but during the last year (and before the Borg 4D attraction opened) your pass was an all day pass! The price was comparable to any other attraction in Las Vegas and WTF, already??? You're on vacation... spend a couple of bucks! If anybody actually went to the Experience and then decided against it because of the ticket price, I quite frankly don't need them here as they aren't contributing enough to my local economy to cover the utilites that they are using while they're in town.


Rant over...

Carry on.

 

[azebelys]

I Must say, i'm impressed with all your uses of facts and figures in this debate. However, you do have a flare for the dramatic

Firstly, at no point did i say that trek fans "exclusively" kept the place open. it would be niave of me to even think that. but at the end of the day, because it is star trek, it will always have a stigma that will put off a lot of people. Biggshow and yourself rightly point out that trekkies will bring their friends, but will those friends pay out time and again for the rides, and the pictures, and the museum. short answer, no. they will probably pay out once because of the whole "i'm on holiday, why not", but your not going to keep these people coming back if they have no appreciation for the star trek franchise. like i said before, they will go back to Quarks, probably more than a few times because of the drinks, the aliens, and the excellent service.

As for the cost, well here you've totally lost me. picture the scenario:

Your going to Las vegas for the first time, and there literally hundreds of things to do. star trek experience may fall somewhere on that list, but if your a NON trekkie, are your really going to spend the time researching all the costs of the place as a top priority? probably not, your more likely to look at the most important things to you. again, are non trekkies going to plan a holiday around the experience? the cost may be comparable to any other attraction, but again, if your not a fan, is that money well spent when there are other attractions which may appeal to you more?

How is the freemont street experience child friendly? Neonopolis was originally aimed at this, but has spent the last five years being a complete flop, tenants either moved out quickly, or simply never moved in. Jillians has gone, and the movie theatre is still there i'll grant you, but are you going to take your kids on holiday to go to the cinema??? i'm guessing we are going to end up argueing this point till the end of time, but there is no way, you can convince me that Freemont, and vegas on the whole is a good holiday destination for people with children. I hav been to Vegas three times, and i'm going there again in June, and the amount of Children i see there compared with other tourist attractions is laughable. I dont pretend to know more about Las vegas than the next person, but i do know that with my own eyes, and experiences there that this is not a family place to go on holiday

now thats out of my system, i'm now going to spend some time researching more about freemont and las vegas, and especially child friendly places. wouldnt want to end up looking foolish (if i dont already lol)

 

[Alidar Jarok]

no, actually i mean the bar from enterprise the TV show, not from TNG. The one that Archer goes in, and gets into a fight. i havent watched enterprise enough times to know what its called

602 Club. It wasn't featured all that often (mentioned a couple of times, seen in First Flight). It doesn't have close to the recognition of Quarks, so it would be a bit pointless to switch to that one.

 

[Cmndr J Crichton]

It's too bad they couldn't have a bar/resturaunt from all the series: 602 from Enterprise, a dining hall modeled after the captain's mess on the Enterprise-A&TOS, Ten foward from TNG, Quark's from DS9, and a resturaunt modeled after the Mess Hall in Voyager.

 

[dreadpiraterose]

I'd like the bar and the promenade to look MORE like DS9 and less generic sci-fi like with Trek accents.

 

[dreadpiraterose]

And its in Las Vegas, hardly the most family friendly place to go on holiday.

It's cleaned up its act a lot now - and the change has been in place for a long time, at least 20 years if not more. I can vaguely remember the olden days when it was different. Their strategy is aimed at attracting more of the family crowd; it just makes good business sense. Amazingly enough, there's a limited market for out and out sleaze.

Star Trek is "family friendly" in the sense that it's on mainstream TV and in the mainstream movie market. I doubt we'd ever see Star Trek on HBO or an R-rated Star Trek movie. So to be sleazy in the old time Las Vegas sense would be good neither for Las Vegas or for Star Trek.

But by family friendly, I mean no drunken hookers baring their breasts on the strip. I don't mean that you need to make the place look like Chuck E Cheese.

As a Vegas comedian told the audience of his show: bringing a kid to Vegas is like bringing a hooker to Disneyland.

Still isn't clean enough for children what-so-ever. Trek may be "family friendly" but you still had to walk through the hotel and casino to get there, and see the billboards on the drive from the airport. LOL.