What say you: Tosk and Hunters?

[Photon]

Tosk nor the Hunters recognized Odo as a Founder when they invited themselves aboard the station.
Either: they were a part of the Dominion and had never seen a Founder or

They were from the Dominion controlled part of the GQ.

Thoughts?

Sidebar: The Hunters really had some kicking technology. Ability to deflect and absorb phaser fire. Even the Jem'Hadar couldn't do that.

 

[Trekwatcher]

Well, the truth is probably that the series was so early in development nobody had any idea about how the series was developed, and the writers of this episode were working almost completely from the writer's bible, which was still a very fresh document.

 

[scorpius1701]

The first time we saw the Founders was when they modeled their facial characteristics off of Odo. Before they met Odo, there was no reason for them to take that appearance. They were obviosuly able to mimic a normal face without a problem. I dont think that Odo even shapeshifted in that episode either. Again it was very very early in the shows run and nobody had thought of the Dominion yet. Heck, they were still trying to make the weapons detectors a factor on the show.

 

[Anthony Sabre]

Well, the truth is probably that the series was so early in development nobody had any idea about how the series was developed, and the writers of this episode were working almost completely from the writer's bible, which was still a very fresh document.

This is true. They had no idea that the Dominion was going to be created at this point. I think the Companion said that Tosk was the basis for the Jem'Hadar. But it can always be rectified in that I don't think that Dominion subjects ever saw Founders. They dealt with Vorta and if they didn't listen to the Vorta, they dealt with the Jem'Hadar. Founders wanted as little to do with solids as possible.

 

[DS9forever]

The script of "The Jem'Hadar" specified that the Jem'Hadar's shrouding effect should be similar to Tosk's. "The thought behind this is that the same people who breed the Tosks as gifts to the Hunters breed the Jem'Hadar as well".

 

[Red Ranger]

The script of "The Jem'Hadar" specified that the Jem'Hadar's shrouding effect should be similar to Tosk's. "The thought behind this is that the same people who breed the Tosks as gifts to the Hunters breed the Jem'Hadar as well".

Makes sense to me. I believe that the Hunters and Tosk may have been part of the Dominion, and that the Founders gave them, probably through the Vorta, the genetic engineering techniques to create all the Tosk.

Of course, the shrouding abilities of both the Jem'Hadar and Tosk were probably inspired by the hunter species in the "Predator" movies.

I also liked very much the defensive abilities of the Hunters. That fight scene on the promenade where they absorb most of the phaser blasts through some device in their arms was way cool!

Red Ranger

 

[DS9Continuing]

Most members of the Dominion never see a Founder, so they wouldn't know one if they saw one. They are used to only dealing with the Vorta, and if necessary, the Jem'Hadar. So there's no reason for the Tosk or Hunters to recognize a Founder.

Something which is emphasized in Rising Son.

 

[JoeZhang]

The way I always saw the Dominion was that on a day to day basis it actually wasn't very different to the federation - the big difference was that you didn't have a choice if you wanted to join or not.

On most Dominion worlds, I would think that some Vorta and a token garrison of Jem'Hadar would be stationed. They'd make sure that you weren't doing anything that went against the benefit of the founders but otherwise left you to it. If you did do something that didn't sit well with the Founders, before you knew it, your cities were in flames and the Jem'Hadar were gutting people in the streets.

A few object lessons like that would keep most of the other worlds in line without requiring too heavy a hand. Nobody saw a founder (which were considered myths by most) and nobody wanted to see any Jem'Hadar because that was a sign bad things were going to happen.

 

[Timo]

Most members of the Dominion never see a Founder, so they wouldn't know one if they saw one.

And the odds are, if they saw one, they'd kill it ASAP, and then report this killing to their Vorta superiors and expect a pat on the head.

The Dominion was founded to protect the Changelings from Solid persecution. But there's nothing to indicate that the Dominion has made the desire for such persecution go away - all it has achieved is keeping the Solids well separated from the Changelings. Fear and hatred of shapeshifters is probably still just as widespread in the Dominion as it is outside that star empire.

Fear and hatred of invisible soldiers is probably just as rampant. Perhaps the Tosk are such popular prey because they allow the Hunters to dispel their own fears? Perhaps the Founders made a grievous mistake in allowing another species access to the Jem'Hadar cloaking techniques. Even if they keep the recipe for the ability secret, the very existence of the Tosk undermines the efficiency of the Jem'Hadar as a deterrent or as a military opponent.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalClegg]

It's sort of been my theory that the Hunters weren't part of the Dominion and were one of the few gamma-quad races that successfully maintained some sort of resistance.

The hunt was their way of doing so. It was the Hunters who created the Tosk and they specifically made them to be like the Jem'Hadar. Sort of like practice, if you will.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Has anyone thought it may be possible that the Dominion have been at war with the hunters in the Gamma Quadrant? How do we know that the Dominion didn't acquire the cloning technology from the Hunters? perhaps the Hunters arnt part of the Dominion and prefer to keep out of their way as much as possible but was able to steal their cloning technology.

Anything is possible but the way I see it is that the Hunters had technology far more in advance than the Dominion, the Dominion is probably in no position to challenge the Hunters and have a non-aggression treaty with them in the hopes of biding their time and building their forces up, it may be that the war with the Alpha Quadrant has spared the Hunters for the time being.

Another likely scenario is that the Hunters enjoy something similar to the Breens alliance with the Dominion, the Hunters have their own ships and are largely autonomous but are Dominion allies and perhaps the Dominion aquired the cloning technology from the Hunters in a similar way to gaining the Breen dampening weapon from the Breen.

 

[Photon]

[/QUOTE]Another likely scenario is that the Hunters enjoy something similar to the Breens alliance with the Dominion, the Hunters have their own ships and are largely autonomous but are Dominion allies and perhaps the Dominion aquired the cloning technology from the Hunters in a similar way to gaining the Breen dampening weapon from the Breen.[/QUOTE]

I'm buying.

 

[Trekwatcher]

Well, the truth is probably that the series was so early in development nobody had any idea about how the series was developed, and the writers of this episode were working almost completely from the writer's bible, which was still a very fresh document.

This is true. They had no idea that the Dominion was going to be created at this point. I think the Companion said that Tosk was the basis for the Jem'Hadar. But it can always be rectified in that I don't think that Dominion subjects ever saw Founders. They dealt with Vorta and if they didn't listen to the Vorta, they dealt with the Jem'Hadar. Founders wanted as little to do with solids as possible.

I agree with you on this. You can also see further evidence of the lack of this knowledge in S1's Vortex, where there are hints of Gamma Quandrant people knowing about changelings without ever really seeing them. Again, I suspect these first few episodes were at least partially written in a vacuum, without knowledge of how other early episodes were being written. The Tosk/Jem'Hadar similarities are hard to ignore.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

AFAIK, the Hunters *are* members of the Dominion. They are its designated navigators and trackers (much like the Jem'Hadar are its soldiers, Vorta the diplomats, etc.).

In fact a Hunter was supposed to take the helm of the Defiant in "Broken Link" but it was changed at the last minute to a Jem'Hadar.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

It's a little late for "supposed ta's".

If it's not on screen...it doesn't count.

The hunters thus remain ambigious.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It's a little late for "supposed ta's".

If it's not on screen...it doesn't count.

The hunters thus remain ambigious.

It's not ever going to be onscreen again, so it might as well count.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

It's a little late for "supposed ta's".

If it's not on screen...it doesn't count.

The hunters thus remain ambigious.

It's not ever going to be onscreen again, so it might as well count.

I'm afraid canon doesnt quite work how you would like it to, if its not onscreen its not canon therefore the hunters are not proven to be members of the Dominion, not only that, the evidence presented onscreen would 'suggest' they cannot possibly be Dominion members based majorly on the technology shown, the Hunters technology was completely different and more advanced than that of the Dominion.