What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

[The Overlord]

...Except Bajorans enlisted in the forces of an enemy of the occupying force. In analogy, Cardassians should be enlisting in the Dominion military, rather than the UFP or KE or RSE ones.

That is an utterly absurd statement, but if you want to think of the UFP as an enemy force to the Bajorans, go right ahead... I shan't stop you.

I actually question it in the opposite direction. It's natural the Bajorans would join Starfleet who helped them get back on their feet after what the Cardassians did to them.

The Dominion were responsible for what happened to Cardassia and were the occupying force, the Federation helped them to get back on their feet, and were the enemy of the occupying force. Now maybe the Romulan and Klingon prescence and aid could be akin to an Occupation, but, I certainly wouldn't expect the Federation Prescence to be seen in that light.

I think remnants of the now defunct military dictatorship that ran Cardassia for centuries would be resentful of the Federation's presence on Cardassia. It would be naive to assume that people like Gul Madred would do a 180 and would now support the Federation after the war. I could imagine a new version "The True Way" terrorist group, rising up to oppose the Federation's presence on Cardassia.

Look at it this way, most modern day Germans hate the Nazis, but still a small minority in Germany who support Nazi ideals. There will always people who embrace destructive ideologies.

 

[Timo]

It's natural the Bajorans would join Starfleet who helped them get back on their feet after what the Cardassians did to them.

Except that Ro Laren joined before there was any help from Starfleet. Sito Jaxa in turn was already a graduated Ensign by the time barely a year after "Emissary".

It's probably more like vice versa. Tal Celes apparently became a Starfleet crew member because the organization wanted to support and indeed pamper Bajorans in order to make them appreciate Starfleet more ("Good Shepherd").

Now maybe the Romulan and Klingon prescence and aid could be akin to an Occupation, but, I certainly wouldn't expect the Federation Prescence to be seen in that light.

Why not? Cardassians supposedly didn't bother with constantly terrorizing everybody, either. But they were there, their big military boots trampling on sacred Bajoran soil. That's what the Feds would be doing on Cardassia, too, even if they felt they were there only to help.

Okay, basically the Feds brought war to Bajor, while Cardassia brought war upon itself, so perhaps Cardassians would hate Starfleet less than Bajorans do. But would they really see things from that point of view? They were being trampled on by Starfleet and its allies every time they tried to take the destiny of their culture in their own hands.

Look at it this way, most modern day Germans hate the Nazis, but still a small minority in Germany who support Nazi ideals.

...And plenty of people who think the US and Soviet occupations were no real improvement over the Nazi reign. On the other hand, while the Soviets may have been worse than the Nazis in many places, the communist reign in East Germany carried many benefits that are still missed today.

There will always people who embrace destructive ideologies.

Or resent non-destructive ones.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sindatur]

OK, apparently you're basing your arguments on books I've never read, since you are speaking of these unlikely things as fact, so, I have no real knowledge to debate with. I assumed we were basing assumptions upon where the show left off, and your assumptions don't seem very likely to me based upon televised Trek

 

[Edit_XYZ]

I think of the Cardassians during the war as being not unlike Italy to the Axis during World War Two.

While the Italians made a pretense of being tough guys, when the war really got going the Germans had to bail them out.

by the way, it reminds me of Winston Churchills comment about Italy when he learned they were fighting on the German side in WWII.

"It's only fair. We had them last time." (World War One).

Well that's about the most shallow and insulting way to make a point by making a blanket statement against an entire group of people.

To say nothing of the fact it demonstrates your lack of any in depth knowledge of world war II. Italy had a lot of problems, but combrat prowress wasn't one of them. If you had ever read any reports of the campaigns in North Africa you'd know that.

They were lacking in industry and heavy equipment to be certain. Their main problem was they had to project naval and air power over a British dominated Mediterranian, and with so much of their industry keeping them in the game there, thinks like heavy artillery and tanks are secondary.

Before you mention Greece, let me just point out that the campaign in Greece was a testimony both to Mussolini's lack of strategic insight and preparation and the ferocity of the Greek defenders than the Italian people or nation you so openly insulted.

There are parallels to be certain, but maybe you should watch a bit more Trek outside the Dominion war arc and learn about it's themes of tolerance and understanding.

I have no doubt the italians were as brave and resourceful as the english and germans in WW2 - Greece's surprisingly successful resistance against a superior force notwithstanding.

But they still underperfomed martially in that war: they were, clearly, the weakest of the 'great powers' in WW2; their military did lack combat prowess.
There are, of course, objective reasons for it - the italians didn't have the military technology or industry the english or germans had.

On the other hand, nobody gave the english or the germans this technology or this industrial base as a gift. They built it themselves.
The italians didn't - and, during WW2, it showed.


'Tolerance' and 'understanding' is not ignoring historical facts in favor of feel good propaganda just because you don't like said historical facts - or because you don't find them politically correct enough -, R. Star.

 

[Timo]

OK, apparently you're basing your arguments on books I've never read, since you are speaking of these unlikely things as fact, so, I have no real knowledge to debate with.

No, I don't read DS9 books (A Stitch In Time and The 34th Rule notwithstanding). What I say happened to Bajorans vis-á-vis them joining Starfleet is all there explicitly in TNG episodes "Ensign Ro" and "Lower Decks" and in VOY episode "Good Shepherd", as mentioned.

What I suggest is that Cardassians would behave more or less the same way, only with the names of the players changed, because they are facing more or less the same situation - occupation by a force that looks down on them and thinks it's doing them good by occupying, even though the occupied people think they have fallen from the heights of their civilization due to a barbarian invasion.

Bajorans didn't join the Cardassian military when Cardassia occupied them (as far as we know!). Don't you think it rather unlikely that Cardassians would join the UFP military when the UPF occupies them, a priori?

But they still underperfomed martially in that war

Hmm... This is lightyears away from "they made a pretense of being tough guys".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sindatur]

OK, apparently you're basing your arguments on books I've never read, since you are speaking of these unlikely things as fact, so, I have no real knowledge to debate with.

No, I don't read DS9 books (A Stitch In Time and The 34th Rule notwithstanding). What I say happened to Bajorans vis-á-vis them joining Starfleet is all there explicitly in TNG episodes "Ensign Ro" and "Lower Decks" and in VOY episode "Good Shepherd", as mentioned.

What I suggest is that Cardassians would behave more or less the same way, only with the names of the players changed, because they are facing more or less the same situation - occupation by a force that looks down on them and thinks it's doing them good by occupying, even though the occupied people think they have fallen from the heights of their civilization due to a barbarian invasion.

Bajorans didn't join the Cardassian military when Cardassia occupied them (as far as we know!). Don't you think it rather unlikely that Cardassians would join the UFP military when the UPF occupies them, a priori?

But they still underperfomed martially in that war

Hmm... This is lightyears away from "they made a pretense of being tough guys".

Timo Saloniemi

The Dominion Occupation was what destroyed them, the Federation is helping them to rebuild and survive, so, no I wouldn't expect them to blame the Federation, and go run off and join up with the Dominion again (who are the ones who destroyed them)

 

[GulGoneCrazy]

I don't get just another thing from all this...how anyone can compare Cardassians with Bajorans.
I mean even after dominion war Cardassians have a lot of space and enough of warships left while Bajorans are force with few colonies and few ships mainly shuttle fighters.
Also Cardassians aint just rebuilding just Cardassia like Bajorans did on Bajor.Cardassians have to rebuild almost entire union.

 

[T'Girl]

Cardassians have to rebuild almost entire union.

But how much of that Union are the Cardassians going to be "allowed" to retain?

Any previously disputed territories would go to non-Cardassian powers, like the worlds in Journey's End would go to the federation, people who evacuated when the federation told them to would finally be able to return to their homes once the Cardassian colonists left.

Any worlds that the Cardassians acquired in a fashion similar to their conquest of Bajor would (hopefully) be freed from the Cardassians. Indigenous populations would see their worlds emptied of any Cardassian presence.

Stripping Cardassia of all it's non-indigenous population colonies, similar in a way to what happen to Germany following WWI, could happen as well.

In the end, the "Union" might consist of just the Cardassian home world, and the Cardassian home star system.

 

[R. Star]

Unlikely as the Cardassians were stated to have colonies in multiple systems such as Sarpherion and Lazon. As to them being occupied or not? Well that's up to the imagination or if one wants to read the novels or not.

 

[Timo]

I mean even after dominion war Cardassians have a lot of space and enough of warships left while Bajorans are force with few colonies and few ships mainly shuttle fighters.

Actually, Bajorans had an unholy number of colonies as the direct result of the occupation - there seemed to be a refugee camp style colony just about everywhere in Alpha, and ultimately in Gamma as well! Cardassians don't seem to have hindered the diaspora in any way...

What happened to these worlds is an interesting question as well. Were the refugee camps abandoned in disgust after "Emissary" as the Bajorans finally could return to their homeworld? Or did the emigrants despise those who had stayed behind, and thus stay put for sheer spite? The Dominion razed the Gamma colonies; did Bajor demand that they be reinstated, and did it get what it demanded? Was colonization a brief folly that Bajor abandoned once all this interstellar nonsense was over with?

As far as we can tell, Bajor never was expansionist in its apparent hundred millennia of history - whereas Cardassia seemed to be exactly that for a long time, considering the balance-of-power arrangement involving the expansionist military was quoted as being almost a millennium old in "Defiant". Could Bajor overcome the inertia of those untold millennia and turn towards the stars - or would it resist the temptation instead, and shun anybody who left the homeworld?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Drago-Kazov]

But they still underperfomed martially in that war

They are the only power i know in a military alliance which caused more problems then helped. The inglorious N Africa campaign run by Mussolini forced Hitler to establish the Afrika Korps and send it down there. If that would not had happened the allies might had invaded Italy a lot sooner. When it was just them against the brits the italian soilders surrendered in record numbers

 

[Timo]

Well, the French alliance with Hitler gave him even more grief after 1940. And Hitler's prewar alliance with Stalin directly contributed to Stalin having the upper hand in military intelligence in the following struggle, plus gave Stalin technological knowhow and even an almost completed German warship for free, a vessel crucial in the Soviet defense of Leningrad. And never mind Japan, which decided to be friends with Stalin at the very moment Hitler wanted to crush the Soviet leader, meaning Stalin could withdraw all his forces from Siberia to fight at the western front. Then there are all the annexed nations in eastern Europe - the inefficient and rather corrupt Romanians who cost Hitler Stalingrad, the timid Finns who refused to contribute to the siege of Leningrad at the crucial hour, the Hungarians who had little choice in joining and made that clear in their degree of contribution to the war...

Then again, I can't help but wonder why anybody would be surprised by the low quality of the alliances Adolf Hitler's Germany managed to forge.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Drago-Kazov]

We are lucky Japan was not in Europe. Together they would had been unstopable.

 

[MacLeod]

Cardassians have to rebuild almost entire union.

But how much of that Union are the Cardassians going to be "allowed" to retain?

Any previously disputed territories would go to non-Cardassian powers, like the worlds in Journey's End would go to the federation, people who evacuated when the federation told them to would finally be able to return to their homes once the Cardassian colonists left.

Any worlds that the Cardassians acquired in a fashion similar to their conquest of Bajor would (hopefully) be freed from the Cardassians. Indigenous populations would see their worlds emptied of any Cardassian presence.

Stripping Cardassia of all it's non-indigenous population colonies, similar in a way to what happen to Germany following WWI, could happen as well.

In the end, the "Union" might consist of just the Cardassian home world, and the Cardassian home star system.

The question is could Cardassia support/maintain conquered planets, whilst trying to rebuild the home world. They might decide (or be forced by the UFP) to let those worlds go and not expend valuable resources on them.

 

[GulGoneCrazy]

Adarak prime
Arawath
Amleth Prime
Avenal VII
Atbar prime
Cardassia prime
Cardassia III
Cardassia IV
Cardassia V
Felton prime
Celtris III
Chin'Toka II
Chin'Toka III
Goralis
Kelvas V
Kora II
Korma
Lazon II
Loval
Omekla III
Orias III
Pentath III
Pullock V
Quinor VII
Regulak IV
Rondac III
Sarpedion V
Septimus III
Simperia
Soukara
Torros III
Trelka V
Unefra III
Vanden prime
Velos VII

This is the list of known Cardassian colonised worlds mentioned in DS9 series.So Cardassians have to rebuild much more than we think... And i believe there is much more Cardassian colonies around...We are not talking about defeat of one race ,this was the fall of great space empire...

 

[Timo]

We are lucky Japan was not in Europe. Together they would had been unstopable.

What, an extra island in the North Sea or the Mediterranean with minuscule industrial capabilities, no access to key raw materials, and no knowledge of how to build modern armored vehicles, would have made a difference?

The question is could Cardassia support/maintain conquered planets, whilst trying to rebuild the home world. They might decide (or be forced by the UFP) to let those worlds go and not expend valuable resources on them.

One might argue that any planet worth conquering would be self-sustaining or a net producer of goods. That is, the world would be able to sustain a labor force at the required minimum level of getting some good work out of them, and could be stripped of raw materials and somewhat refined goods or even foodstuffs by utilizing a modestly performing space fleet of humble technical specs.

This is the list of known Cardassian colonised worlds mentioned in DS9 series.

Some of those may not actually be colonies - many of the name-dropped worlds serve in the plot role of an "outpost", which might amount to much less than even the humblest "colony".

To what extent the war ravaged these locations is unknown. Why bother with faraway planets when the war can be settled by fighting decisively at Cardassia Prime?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MacLeod]

^Yes, but if a world was conquered and needed a military presence to keep the locals under control. If the population rebelled could/would the Cardassians want/be allowed to maintain control of the planet?

 

[Timo]

This I guess would depend on whether the original occupation force needed to be of significant military strength. In many cases, I could see a planet being kept subjugated by relatively weak forces that would never have been withdrawn from the world even during the height of the war. Although it could be argued that whenever the Alpha Axis powers observed such a world, they would have sent a small military unit of their own to help liberate the world, at very low cost to themselves but high cost to the Union...

Chiefly, though, I could see the campaign being waged much like the WWII Pacific one, with individual "islands" being denied strategic significance by controlling the shipping to and fro. This would reduce the value of fortresses, bases or raw material sources alike. In contrast, an actual attempt to conquer such a world might involve a high cost in lives, as there was some emphasis on bloody infantry-style warfare in the dialogue describing the Dominion War (even if we saw little of it on screen). In order to avoid the loss of life, the Alpha Axis might skip conquest, thus leaving the local infrastructure standing as well, and allowing the Union to resume exploitation operations unless the peace treaty specifically forbade them from doing so.

Of course, the UFP would be likely to insist on such a peace treaty on humanitarian grounds, even if the other Alpha partners would not. But the Feds might also decide to allow the Union to continue exploitation for humanitarian purposes (that is, to prevent mass starvation on Cardassia) if they just agreed to doing it more gently from now on.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MacLeod]

Wouldn't it be Alpha Allied powers, rather Axis powers. As Axis tends in modern usage tends to refer to the the fascist allaince between Germany, Italy and Japan during WWII?

 

[Timo]

...And Klingons and Romulans wouldn't make the Alpha cabal fascist enough yet?

I don't see much reason to glorify the joining of forces with the nomenclature of "good guys", considering they weren't any less prone to atrocities than the other side.

(It's a separate question whether the Allies in WWII were much better than the Axis. But I guess it's the image that counts.)

Timo Saloniemi