What is your opinion of Capt. Jellico?

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Jellico fails to realize that "public relations" is a part of his job, one he can't just delegate to Troi. He should have introduced himself to the whole crew.

It's not public relations - it's leadership.

Yes, these people do have to follow your orders. That does not make you a leader.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Here's the problem with Jellico:

Riker repelled the Borg invasion of the Federation and saved Earth.

Starfleet put a whole fleet up against the Borg at Wolf 347 or whatever it was called, and got their asses kicked.

Riker and the crew of the Enterprise stopped the Borg.

What do the Borg have to do with all this? Jellico was called in to deal with the *Cardassians*. That's because he was an expert on them. He knew better than anyone how to deal with them.

So Picard and Riker were good at fighting the Borg. Good for them. They are probably as much Borg experts as Jellico is a Cardassian expert. Fine. WE GET THAT. If Starfleet needed Borg experts, they'd know who to call. But they needed a captain who's experienced with *Cardassians*, and Jellico has them all beat on that point.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

So Picard and Riker were good at fighting the Borg. Good for them. They are probably as much Borg experts as Jellico is a Cardassian expert. Fine. WE GET THAT. If Starfleet needed Borg experts, they'd know who to call.

You completely missed the point. It has nothing to do with who's an "expert" on what. Who cares what Jellico's credentials were? That's got nothing to do with his attitude toward being put in command of a group of people who have accomplished something that he has no right or reason to believe that he's capable of.

You are right about one thing - the Cardassians are not the Borg. The worst the spoonheads could do was peanuts compared to the Borg invasion of BOBW.

The funny thing about all of this was that bringing in Ronny Cox and creating Jellico was that year's round of "what will we do if Stewart leaves?" They dodged a bullet.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Who cares what Jellico's credentials were?

Starfleet did - that's why they *sent* Jellico.

That's got nothing to do with his attitude toward being put in command of a group of people who have accomplished something that he has no right or reason to believe that he's capable of.

Something that is totally irrelevant. You want to talk 'who cares'? Who cares about the Borg? Just because the Ent-D crew were good, or should I say lucky, in fighting the Borg doesn't mean they could do the same with the Cardassians. Jellico practically wrote the book on how to deal with the Cardassians. They needed him. That's why he was there.

Jellico was under no obligation to respect or even give a crap about the crew's experience with the Borg, because that doesn't make them good at fighting *Cardassians*. And might I add that said Borg experience was limited anyway - the only reason they beat the Borg in the first place is because they were lucky enough to hear Picard-as-Locutus say "SLEEP". If they were as near-omnipotent as you claim they are, they wouldn't have needed that.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Here's the problem with Jellico:

Riker repelled the Borg invasion of the Federation and saved Earth.

Starfleet put a whole fleet up against the Borg at Wolf 347 or whatever it was called, and got their asses kicked.

Riker and the crew of the Enterprise stopped the Borg.

So in complete context, Jellico comes off as insecure and a poor judge of the people under his command in trying so hard to assert authority by bluster over Riker and the others.

Of course, Trek doesn't treat this kind of thing in any sensible context; if there's not exactly amnesia between episodes there's certainly kind of "brown-out" of memory - otherwise, why not put Riker who's clearly eminently qualified to command Enterprise in charge rather than bringing in an officer like Jellico whose command achievements couldn't possibly equal Riker's? Which tracks back, of course, to the illogic to the idea that Riker would have remained as second-in-command of Enterprise after the events of "Best Of Both Worlds" - that's an idea that can only be sustained within Trek's Bizarro Fleet (similar to the peculiar career paths of everyone who had served on the Enterprise by the time of Star Trek 6).

All true--all very, very true. By contrast, though, one figures that a (one-time) captain and crew capable of repulsing the Borg would be capable of carrying out the orders of this new captain without throwing hissy fits and sulking.

An example of Riker being written as an imbecile: when the Cardassian gul taunts the crew of the E by saying that Picard's mission has failed--a mission the Federation has completely disavowed--the great poker player tips everybody's hand by blurting "Is he alive?" Nice one, Will, as the expression on Jellico's face clearly shows.

If I were Jellico and I had to deal with this idiot--this idiot who fails to implement a direct order (the three shift to four shift thing) and then waits until I ask him why rather than manning up and coming to me, saying "This is why it won't work" (and it did work), I'd come to the conclusion that he was just a very lucky cretin, much Columbus was in his "discovery" of the New World.

EDIT: Indeed, I'd say this moment shows why Jellico was right in treating Riker as he did. There's no way to read what Riker was doing as anything but a power play, a dominance game played right when the Federation was on the brink of war. The scene in his quarters, when he smugly makes Jellico beg (and beg Jellico does because he knows it's the mission that matters, not his ego) just proves it.

 

[Snaploud]

This episode makes me think that Riker wasn't ready for command (despite a good outcome against the Borg). That's probably why he stayed so long as first officer under Picard. Riker knew he needed more grooming.

 

[Vonstadt]

Here's the problem with Jellico:

Riker repelled the Borg invasion of the Federation and saved Earth.

Starfleet put a whole fleet up against the Borg at Wolf 347 or whatever it was called, and got their asses kicked.

Riker and the crew of the Enterprise stopped the Borg.

So in complete context, Jellico comes off as insecure and a poor judge of the people under his command in trying so hard to assert authority by bluster over Riker and the others.

Of course, Trek doesn't treat this kind of thing in any sensible context; if there's not exactly amnesia between episodes there's certainly kind of "brown-out" of memory - otherwise, why not put Riker who's clearly eminently qualified to command Enterprise in charge rather than bringing in an officer like Jellico whose command achievements couldn't possibly equal Riker's? Which tracks back, of course, to the illogic to the idea that Riker would have remained as second-in-command of Enterprise after the events of "Best Of Both Worlds" - that's an idea that can only be sustained within Trek's Bizarro Fleet (similar to the peculiar career paths of everyone who had served on the Enterprise by the time of Star Trek 6).

All true--all very, very true. By contrast, though, one figures that a (one-time) captain and crew capable of repulsing the Borg would be capable of carrying out the orders of this new captain without throwing hissy fits and sulking.

An example of Riker being written as an imbecile: when the Cardassian gul taunts the crew of the E by saying that Picard's mission has failed--a mission the Federation has completely disavowed--the great poker player tips everybody's hand by blurting "Is he alive?" Nice one, Will, as the expression on Jellico's face clearly shows.

If I were Jellico and I had to deal with this idiot--this idiot who fails to implement a direct order (the three shift to four shift thing) and then waits until I ask him why rather than manning up and coming to me, saying "This is why it won't work" (and it did work), I'd come to the conclusion that he was just a very lucky cretin, much Columbus was in his "discovery" of the New World.

EDIT: Indeed, I'd say this moment shows why Jellico was right in treating Riker as he did. There's no way to read what Riker was doing as anything but a power play, a dominance game played right when the Federation was on the brink of war. The scene in his quarters, when he smugly makes Jellico beg (and beg Jellico does because he knows it's the mission that matters, not his ego) just proves it.

This episode makes me think that Riker wasn't ready for command (despite a good outcome against the Borg). That's probably why he stayed so long as first officer under Picard. Riker knew he needed more grooming.

I believe in fact both of these sum it quite nicely. The E-D crew just does not come off looking good in this script. With the exception of Geordi and Data. Geordi is within his rights as a department head to go to the first officer and ask that the new captain 'ease off' a little, I mean his folks are used to doing things one way and it would be easier not to change, however he accepts the new change and carries out his duty without any kind of child like pout.

Data merely stepped right into his role and assumed his new duties in accordance to the new change in command.

Not a good episode for Troi and Riker in my opinion.

 

[ALF]

Here's the problem with Jellico:

Riker repelled the Borg invasion of the Federation and saved Earth.

Starfleet put a whole fleet up against the Borg at Wolf 347 or whatever it was called, and got their asses kicked.

Riker and the crew of the Enterprise stopped the Borg.

So in complete context, Jellico comes off as insecure and a poor judge of the people under his command in trying so hard to assert authority by bluster over Riker and the others.

Of course, Trek doesn't treat this kind of thing in any sensible context; if there's not exactly amnesia between episodes there's certainly kind of "brown-out" of memory - otherwise, why not put Riker who's clearly eminently qualified to command Enterprise in charge rather than bringing in an officer like Jellico whose command achievements couldn't possibly equal Riker's? Which tracks back, of course, to the illogic to the idea that Riker would have remained as second-in-command of Enterprise after the events of "Best Of Both Worlds" - that's an idea that can only be sustained within Trek's Bizarro Fleet (similar to the peculiar career paths of everyone who had served on the Enterprise by the time of Star Trek 6).

I like this post and those brown-out memories are unfortunately what pull the suspension of disbelief out of Trek too hard.

For example, in Gambit (which I think was a great two parter for season 7 btw) it was absolutely ridiculous that the entire crew of mercenaries on that ship didn't know Riker or Picard, they having saved the entire quadrant from the Borg invasion three years previous. Most people seem to recognize Data right away... Data has been established as more or less a celebrity in the Trek universe. So why do Picard, Riker and the rest of the crew get such poor exposure? Do they need to hire PR?

That's one thing that impressed me during the final reel of Trek09, the fact Nero actually recognized Kirk "from Earth's history." THAT made much more sense and maybe some of the low level goons may not see it, but come on. These faces have got to be plastered all over the galactic news service or whatever passes for the information net in that era.

Dennis, your points about Jellico's command achievements being substantially weaker than Riker's are spot on.

The only reason I can see why Starfleet would let Riker continue on the Enterprise is because it is a special ship... there don't seem to be that many transfers from higher up.

Well, that and it's a TV show that needs to keep its cast together.

 

[trekjiro]

I just saw the 2 parts last night. First, obviously this guy is a great actor to receive so many comments. Yes, he was the person for the 1 job. But, he is not the kind of captain that would be good in the long run. He is not good with communicating. He has an unnecessary brashness in doing it. Kind of like old-school military. You can still be a very effective leader without that way of thinking. Picard's standards were just as high in everything he did in comparison but he had a different way and approach to leading. He said numerous times how Riker is not a good 1st officer. (He didn't say Captain). That is a totally bogus comment. So many awards from the Federation and crew. But what Riker responded was more true. He didn't bring out the best in others. Because everything turned out peachy in the end...then they kind of looked at him with some 'tenderness' but actually 'relieved' would've been more accurate.

 

[john titor]

This episode makes me think that Riker wasn't ready for command (despite a good outcome against the Borg). That's probably why he stayed so long as first officer under Picard. Riker knew he needed more grooming.

oh he needed grooming alright