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What is your favorite incarnation of "Klingons?"
- Thread starter Trelane_Squire_of_Gothos
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I remember it being a bit more shocking when I first saw it because it was so unexpected.
I knew about the SNL bit, but chose not to include it because I didn't think it was convincing enough, I did think the nailed it better in CtA...
Phil Hendrie ladies and gentlemen
Meyer is not a Star Trek fan and he didn't bother to do his homework or his staff wasn't open to remind him about Klingon blood seen on TNG because maybe, like many instances I view with members in this forum, drank the Kool-aid he's this great director who had many hits and everything he touched was gold, but who in reality did one good movie with Ricardo Montalban*. Meyer was good when ideas were given to him, as he called it "priming the pump", but wasn't a person who actually had good ideas.
*Harve Bennett deserves a lot more credit for that movie than he gets; his years of TV producing garnered a plan which made TWOK work.
Meyer's never made any secrets about what Star Trek would be like if he created it.
Is he a great director? No, I wouldn't say he's one of the greats. I'm a huge fan of Alfred Hitchcock films, along with guys like Paul Thomas Anderson (Boogie Nights, Magnolia, There Will Be Blood, Inherent Vice, etc.) so in my case the bar is pretty high for what I consider a great director. He's a competent director, a get the job done director. Someone who can make a good film on a tight budget. But you're right about story ideas. Usually someone else lays down the basic plot. Now he can fill in the details, but it's usually someone else that starts the ball rolling.
Now that's all fine. Hitchcock wasn't a script writer. He typically worked with other screen writers and he's one of the greatest directors ever (I'd say IMO, but come on, he IS the greatest director
--one reason I don't hold the Oscars in much esteem is the man never won a best director Oscar....I mean, COME ON, seriously 
).I think Meyer is held up on a pedestal partly because TWOK is held up as the best Star Trek film to so many people (and it is my 2nd favorite so I'm right there too). But other people wrote that film. Bennett was the one that basically came up with the basic story idea for that. Meyer executed that well, no doubt.
Now when it comes to TUC, I'm a bit more critical of that one. Some Trekkies cite that as one of their top Star Trek films as well, sometimes top 3. I'm a bit less enthusiastic about that one. I usually have it around the middle of the pack. The basic story was fine, and I liked some of the execution. One thing I had a real problem with, though, is the bigotry of the Enterprise command officers like Scotty, Uhura, and Chekov. I can understand caution, even some mistrust. The Klingons were mortal enemies of the Federation so a little ambivalence is natural. Captain Kirk is the only one I can understand some hostility from. His son was murdered by Klingons, and Kirk is human. And it's one thing that might follow a bit from TFF, where even there he expressed a dislike for Klingons. TUC is about 7 to 8 years later so I can see that festering. Spock is the only one that seems true to his character. And then there was that ridiculous scene where they are looking through books for translating into Klingon. All because Meyer thought it would be a cool scene. Chances are Uhura is already experienced with Klingon languages, and if nothing else, I'm sure the computer can provide a readout that Uhura could read if necessary. It's a minor scene and by itself I could probably let it go. But it's just an example where TUC just doesn't rank as highly as some other Star Trek films for me.
So overall, Meyer is fine as a director, but he's a better director executing someone else's story. He can get a quality product with a tight budget. TWOK was made at a fraction of the budget of TMP, yet the overall quality of the shots and special effects are still on par with TMP. He knows how to recycle things to save money.
THey're LYING! It's not like that at all
TWOK ranks a little lower for me but the high point is definitely Meyer's direction and crafting a very enjoy story from the limitations of that production.Meyer's never made any secrets about what Star Trek would be like if he created it.
Is he a great director? No, I wouldn't say he's one of the greats. I'm a huge fan of Alfred Hitchcock films, along with guys like Paul Thomas Anderson (Boogie Nights, Magnolia, There Will Be Blood, Inherent Vice, etc.) so in my case the bar is pretty high for what I consider a great director. He's a competent director, a get the job done director. Someone who can make a good film on a tight budget. But you're right about story ideas. Usually someone else lays down the basic plot. Now he can fill in the details, but it's usually someone else that starts the ball rolling.
Now that's all fine. Hitchcock wasn't a script writer. He typically worked with other screen writers and he's one of the greatest directors ever (I'd say IMO, but come on, he IS the greatest director
I think Meyer is held up on a pedestal partly because TWOK is held up as the best Star Trek film to so many people (and it is my 2nd favorite so I'm right there too). But other people wrote that film. Bennett was the one that basically came up with the basic story idea for that. Meyer executed that well, no doubt.
Now when it comes to TUC, I'm a bit more critical of that one. Some Trekkies cite that as one of their top Star Trek films as well, sometimes top 3. I'm a bit less enthusiastic about that one. I usually have it around the middle of the pack. The basic story was fine, and I liked some of the execution. One thing I had a real problem with, though, is the bigotry of the Enterprise command officers like Scotty, Uhura, and Chekov. I can understand caution, even some mistrust. The Klingons were mortal enemies of the Federation so a little ambivalence is natural. Captain Kirk is the only one I can understand some hostility from. His son was murdered by Klingons, and Kirk is human. And it's one thing that might follow a bit from TFF, where even there he expressed a dislike for Klingons. TUC is about 7 to 8 years later so I can see that festering. Spock is the only one that seems true to his character. And then there was that ridiculous scene where they are looking through books for translating into Klingon. All because Meyer thought it would be a cool scene. Chances are Uhura is already experienced with Klingon languages, and if nothing else, I'm sure the computer can provide a readout that Uhura could read if necessary. It's a minor scene and by itself I could probably let it go. But it's just an example where TUC just doesn't rank as highly as some other Star Trek films for me.
So overall, Meyer is fine as a director, but he's a better director executing someone else's story. He can get a quality product with a tight budget. TWOK was made at a fraction of the budget of TMP, yet the overall quality of the shots and special effects are still on par with TMP. He knows how to recycle things to save money.
I found Meyer after watching his entire resume of movies as a very clunky director, and I can see after his loads of flops and disasters he was happy to return to Star Trek where Leonard Nimoy and the studio thought of him in a shining light. I as well was stunned about the crews bigotry and I was doubled stunned not just some, but nearly all of them including colleagues and regular crew people had similar sentiments and expressed it openly!!! Wow! Of all of the bullshit, some members here chant about "realism" and how Meyer's movies are grounded in the 20th century; I CAN'T IMAGINE or ever being around people so blunt about being racists???Meyer's never made any secrets about what Star Trek would be like if he created it.
Is he a great director? No, I wouldn't say he's one of the greats. I'm a huge fan of Alfred Hitchcock films, along with guys like Paul Thomas Anderson (Boogie Nights, Magnolia, There Will Be Blood, Inherent Vice, etc.) so in my case the bar is pretty high for what I consider a great director. He's a competent director, a get the job done director. Someone who can make a good film on a tight budget. But you're right about story ideas. Usually someone else lays down the basic plot. Now he can fill in the details, but it's usually someone else that starts the ball rolling.
Now that's all fine. Hitchcock wasn't a script writer. He typically worked with other screen writers and he's one of the greatest directors ever (I'd say IMO, but come on, he IS the greatest director
I think Meyer is held up on a pedestal partly because TWOK is held up as the best Star Trek film to so many people (and it is my 2nd favorite so I'm right there too). But other people wrote that film. Bennett was the one that basically came up with the basic story idea for that. Meyer executed that well, no doubt.
Now when it comes to TUC, I'm a bit more critical of that one. Some Trekkies cite that as one of their top Star Trek films as well, sometimes top 3. I'm a bit less enthusiastic about that one. I usually have it around the middle of the pack. The basic story was fine, and I liked some of the execution. One thing I had a real problem with, though, is the bigotry of the Enterprise command officers like Scotty, Uhura, and Chekov. I can understand caution, even some mistrust. The Klingons were mortal enemies of the Federation so a little ambivalence is natural. Captain Kirk is the only one I can understand some hostility from. His son was murdered by Klingons, and Kirk is human. And it's one thing that might follow a bit from TFF, where even there he expressed a dislike for Klingons. TUC is about 7 to 8 years later so I can see that festering. Spock is the only one that seems true to his character. And then there was that ridiculous scene where they are looking through books for translating into Klingon. All because Meyer thought it would be a cool scene. Chances are Uhura is already experienced with Klingon languages, and if nothing else, I'm sure the computer can provide a readout that Uhura could read if necessary. It's a minor scene and by itself I could probably let it go. But it's just an example where TUC just doesn't rank as highly as some other Star Trek films for me.
So overall, Meyer is fine as a director, but he's a better director executing someone else's story. He can get a quality product with a tight budget. TWOK was made at a fraction of the budget of TMP, yet the overall quality of the shots and special effects are still on par with TMP. He knows how to recycle things to save money.
No one I know would ever talk like this among people, my father a naval officer and lived in some terrible times for peoples of color never associated himself with people like that. Anyone who has a sense of a soul who encountered such bluntness would judge that person and their demeanor with a microscope and will eventually lose respect and I expect would never hold them to much honor. These expressions in the movie were too on the nose and I am not shocked the cast had some issue with this case of forced drama. We have Brock Peters calling Klingons the worst of the worst ugly things imaginable and later is a conspirator??? I mean not even show a phony face to give me the belief he may be looking for peace? Nope! He was a racist and a conspirator from the opening of the movie to the end. I mean Kirk should at least be mad at the events of TSFS and grieves altho the murderers were killed in that horrible movie, but still grieves for his son. But to have Kirk commit the greatest sin by blathering unprofessionally on his Captain's log was so predictable and beneath the character.
Valeris eavesdrop on his confession and doesn't even blink an eye to question the Captain or why is the CO saying something like that by an open door where crewmembers could over hear him??? I read talks about the flaws from the odd numbered Treks by fans but play ignorant or gloss over the ones in this so called masterpiece. I give it pass for it being the final TOS movie but I don't think it's a movie anyone should hold their heads high for. The true star of that picture is ILM; the VFX for this movie still holds up and it was a shiny spectacle where we all could look at those lights like bugs and enjoy the illusion. The Klingon blood was just another example of the director's clunkiness.
TUC is a good film, flaws and all.
I actually haven't seen any of Meyer's other work other than the telemovie The Day After, which actually was a very good telemovie about a nuclear attack. But in general, his name isn't one that comes up when discussing some of the great directors. He just has a bit of an inflated reputation due to TWOK.
Yeah, that was one thing that bothered me about the movie from day 1. It's the main reason TUC ends up being just a middle of the road Trek film for me. It's a shame because the overall story had potential and was relevant to the time it was released, when the Iron Curtain had fallen as had the Soviet Union. The part about a hidden conspiracy to sabotage it, that part I can believe. I can buy that individual Starfleet officers and Klingons might prefer to keep things as they are. Not so much because of racism against Klingons, but because it was safe and comfortable. Some Star Trek novels that have come out have added a Section 31 element to the story, that Section 31 was behind Admiral Cartwright and Lt. Valeris' attempts to sabotage the peace conference. Obviously there was no Section 31 back when TUC came out, but retroactively it certainly fits their MO.
But the bigotry exhibited by the officers, esp. the ones we knew and loved like Chekov, Uhura and Scotty, just seemed very out of character.
Yeah, I read Peters had an especially difficult time about his line about 'bringing them to their knees' and it required multiple takes. I realize Meyer was going for some shock value by having Peters say those lines, given his past roles and above all him being Black himself. And Nichelle Nichols flat out refused to say the line about 'guess who's coming to dinner' and Koenig ended up having to deliver those lines. She also did not care for the whole 'looking for translation in books' scene. But she relented I guess (sometimes I suppose you have to pick your battles).
Kirk is the only one I can maybe buy it from. He already had a number of run ins with the Klingons personally up to that point, and then his son was murdered and he lost his beloved first Enterprise because of them, he had the most personally at stake. It's clear even in TFF he is still angry, still referring to them as 'you Klingon bastards.' I didn't have much of a problem with the log because it was a personal log. He admitted about his feelings about Klingons and notes he wants to believe Gorkon, but that history was going to have to get past 'people like him.' So he admits his distrust and how he feels, and even admits that those are probably not worthy thoughts but he can't help how he feels. At the end of the day, they all come around of course, most notably Kirk himself. But I just thought a lot of the characters were off and it's something that always bothered me about TUC.
Also a thank you to your father for his service to our nation.
That’s one of those rare times where everything just clicks. You don’t see that often. 1982 and thereabouts gave us this, THE THING, Blade Runner…nicotine is a brain boost drug….what else could it be?
I would love to see TOS Klingons return without the augment nonsense, just have one or more appear and have the actors just go with it. No questions about why they look like that because I feel there should be many questions to why they look like what they are in DISCO?
I have just as many questions about why the Klingons in TMP look like they do. If TOS Klingons pop up there will be the same level of questions.
Yep, best to not explain it through a storyline and allow the audience to create the answers themselves.
That's worked so well so far...but that's how I handle the Discovery Klingons so no issues.
I would love to see TOS versions return without any explanations, but probably would have to happen in another production. Some day.
I'll be surprised if they do without explanation.
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