What is Star Trek and its future?

[Tarek71]

Spock specifically mentions allies. Having seen Enterprise, I would assume that included the Andorians on the side of Earth. Maybe the Vulcans too, but we learn that the high command is disbanded before then. It's possible that their armed fleet is decommissioned. Maybe not. Later seasons of Enterprise might have cleared that up.

It's possible the Romulans had allies. The Suliban, maybe? Who knows.

 

[Warped9]

I can see the Andorians getting in on the fighting alongside Earth. But would the Vulcans be willing to fight people they knew, or at least suspected, of being long lost relatives? Interesting question.

 

[uniderth]

Your assuming there were actual Romulan bodies on the ships. An empire is inevitably made up of a variety of peoples not just the ruling ones. So Romulan ships may have been manned by Remans or some other conquered species. So UESPA and allies could have been recovering bodies, only to discover they are not Romulans but some conquered slave species.

Alternatively the ships might not be manned at all. They could be computer controlled drones.

I find the story much more compelling if during the wars humans discover robots. Then they discover the species that controls the robots. Then they discover the species that controls the slave species, etc. They peel back layer upon layer of control but don't make it far enough to actually find the Romulans.

I can see the Andorians getting in on the fighting alongside Earth. But would the Vulcans be willing to fight people they knew, or at least suspected, of being long lost relatives? Interesting question.

I don't think the Vulcans had any idea there was a group that left. When Spock brings up the connection it is his hypothesis that Romulans are an offshoot. I imagine that Vulcans are aware that groups have left their planet before. But I doubt there was any idea about the Romulans being one of those groups.

 

[Tarek71]

It's all a bit iffy. We also have to fit a 100- year war between Vulcans and Romulans into the timeline, and then imagine that even after a 100 years they still don't know who the Romulans are. (!?!?)

We don't know when this 100 year war happened. Does this refer to the last 100 years of fighting on Vulcan near the time of Surak? They weren't "Romulans" then, but later persons know that is who they became and so they refer to them that way.

Or maybe it happened much more recently. Its hard to say when, because the timeline of Vulcan warp drive is not clear. Quark seems to think Vulcans didnt have Warp in 1947. He could be wrong about that, but it's hard to prove that he's wrong about that.

Soval tells Armstrong that Earth did in only 100 years what the Vulcans did in 1,500 years. Rebuild their world and go to the stars. If he means after the 4th century wars of Suraks time, that would mean something like the 19th century. Nor far off from Quarks comment.

We also hear it took the Vulcans a 100 years to reach Warp 2. So when is this war? Hard to imagine at low warp speeds. Impossible to imagine at sublight.

Even if we say mid 19th century, that would mean Vulcans become warp capable around 1850, Warp 2 about 1950 (go to Carbon Creek, watch Sputnik launch), and formal 1st contact in 2063. So maybe the 100 year war with the Romulans is 1950s to 2050s? IDK.

 

[Tarek71]

Sure I can see Reman, other aliens and robots on Romulan ships. But the Remans we see do not fight instead of Romulans. Romulans ships, manned by Romulans, are seen from BoT to Nemesis.

 

[uniderth]

I forgot about Q's comment. Though I think there is plenty of wiggle room with it either through naming of dating. Q probably wouldn't say "one of his self destructive stunts created a misunderstanding which ignited the hundred year war between the-people-who-would-later-become-known-as-the-Romulans and the Vulcans." It's easier to just say Romulans. Especially considering dearest Kathy probably isn't an expert in Vulcanian history.

Quark's comments are interesting too. I'm look at the transcript and I can't find any indication that Quark knew what year it was. Nog states it was "the twentieth century" and "more than four hundred years ago."

Quark's comment, "The Ferengi will have warp drive technology centuries before humans or Klingons or even the Vulcans."

I think I have to assume that this is an misunderstanding or overstatment on Quark's part. Because centuries means at least two. That would mean he thinks Vulcanians only had warp drive in 2100. However, vene with misunderstanding or overstatement, I think it would narrow the range for Vulcanian warp capability to between 1900 and 1999 ish. Perhaps they had near warp capability for a very long time. Considering relativity that might not be too off base. If Vulcanians have two hundred year lifespans they might not be as reluctant to use high relativistic speeds for interstellar travel. It still would make interstellar voyages very long.

 

[Tarek71]

I took that line to mean that they would beat the Vulcans to warp drive, and beat the Klingons and humans by centuriesm. But not centuries before Vulcans. But yes, you're right he might have thought that of Vulcans as well.

If we take Sovals comment to Armstrong about 1500 years to be a rough approximation, and take that with Quarks comment, I think we are looking at Vulcan warp sometime during the 18th-20th centuries. Which is 1500 years +/- 100 years. There is also Shran saying that for 200 years (back from the 2150s) Vulcan attacks on Andor were prevented by fear of Andorian retaliation. The means since the 1950s.

Andor would probably not fear attacks from a pre warp Vulcan. Altogether, I'd say Vulcan warp is achieved no later than the 1950s. It could have been a prewarp ship that visited Earth in the 1950s to see Sputnik and Carbon creek, but most likely I'd say a Warp 1 to Warp 2 vessel.

 

[T'Girl]

Spock specifically mentions allies. Having seen Enterprise, I would assume that included the Andorians on the side of Earth.

From the way Spock said it, it wasn't clear if he was talking about the allies of the Humans, or the allies of the Romulans.

If the latter, this could indicate that the Romulans weren't letting their own allies (allies outside of the Empire) get a look at them either.

Separately, Spock indicated that during the course of the war that Humans (and their allies?) stopped pissing around with low powered "photonic" weapons and switched to nuclear weapon. Place a hundred mega-tonnes Tsar warhead in immediate proximity of a Romulan ship and there going to be bodies? Or just smears on the tiny pieces of wreckage?

I believe it was The Starfleet Museum (non-canon) that had a article on the war that said that the biggest piece of wreckage ever recovered was only a few tonnes in weight.

And if the Romulan were employing Remans and dozens of other species from within the Empire boundary's as personnel, any DNA recovered could have been from species other than the Romulans. In NEM, the Human Shinzon rose to the position of "commander," non-Romulans rising to positions of authority. So some of the Romulan ship during the war might not have had any Romulans aboard.

During the later history of the Roman Empire, 90% of the Roman military officers were non-Italians.

.

 

[uniderth]

Speaking of nuclear weapons. When the Romulan commander decides to use an old nuclear warhead (used for self destruction) the effects seemed WAY more powerful than photon torpedoes in any iteration of Star Trek. Look at how minuscule the explosions are of the quantum torpedoes fired at the surface from the Borg ship in First Contact.

P.S. Here's a video of a nuclear bomb exploding in space: https://youtu.be/RKvvrNrCOnw

 

[Warped9]

^^ The thing also went off at practically point blank range and all the Enterprise suffered were circuit burnouts.

 

[uniderth]

^^ The thing also went off at practically point blank range and all the Enterprise suffered were circuit burnouts.

There were at least twenty two people injured. Mostly with radiation burns. The ship suffered circuit burnouts.

All these years I interpreted McCoy's line to mean there were twenty-two casualties(deaths) and other injuries were radiation burns.

Still doesn't explain why Borg quantum torpedoes are the equivalent of firecrackers.

 

[Tarek71]

What we see is that Remans are part of the Romulan military machine, not that they fight instead of Romulans fighting. Indeed, from Balance of Terror to Nemesis, we see Romulan ships, manned by Romulans.

There might be unnamed and never before seen other species on Romulan ships as well. But they would be there in addition to Romulans, not instead of Romulans.

The same should go to the 100-year war with the Vulcans. Romulans fighting in their own ships, against the enemy.

Not sure why they would switch away to nuclear weapons. Photons have variable yields. More than enough firepower. Indeed, no reason to think nukes are stronger. And if they did want stronger, why not an antimatter warhead?

 

[Tarek71]

^^ The thing also went off at practically point blank range and all the Enterprise suffered were circuit burnouts.

There were at least twenty two people injured. Mostly with radiation burns. The ship suffered circuit burnouts.

All these years I interpreted McCoy's line to mean there were twenty-two casualties(deaths) and other injuries were radiation burns.

Still doesn't explain why Borg quantum torpedoes are the equivalent of firecrackers.

Because the writers don't want the Borg to win. Lol. What we see in all subsequent eras is that phasers, disruptors, torpedoes are all you need to knock out Federation, Klingon, or Romulan ships. No reason to think any switch was needed in 2150s.

Torpedoes have variable yields allegedly. Lt Reed said those very fist photonic torpedoes could make a 3 kilometer crater at the higher end of its variable yield.

It's true that in many episodes and movies, the special effects are not consistent with high explosive yields. This is an often used observation by Star Wars fans in the infamous Wars-Trek "versus" debates. That photon torpedoes are like hand grenades and that a single X-Wing would take out any ship in starfleet, etc.

There are exceptions. Like the Romulan-Cardassian attack on what they thought was the Founders home. Immense damage on a colossal scale to the planets crust.

But F the stupid versus debates. There is no way weapons get so pitifully weak in the future. Examples of hand grenade scale explosions when a high yield would seem appropriate are dramatic/literary indulgences, or reffect limitations in effects budgets. Just ignore them.

 

[T'Girl]

Just ignore them.

Sure, they're only depictions of what actually happening in the story.

 

[Tarek71]

Just ignore them.

Sure, they're only depictions of what actually happening in the story.

Right. A story. And you can just ignore it. There are dramatic, literary storytelling and budgetary factors that shape special effects scenes. I wouldn't put much into them.

In versus arguments, it all descends into absurdity as people make frame by frame analyses of this or that effects scene that leads to absurd conclusions, like ships would really lob grenades at each other. Lol. I'm sorry, but there is a point where you just have to engage your suspension of disbelief about some effects scenes.

No, I don't think Starfleet decided to throw hand grenades at Borg cubes, or Dominion ships, or vice versa.

 

[T'Girl]

Story, a noun, an account (real or imaginary) of people and events told for entertainment.

Yes, Star Trek is a story.

 

[Tarek71]

Story, a noun, an account (real or imaginary) of people and events told for entertainment.

Yes, Star Trek is a story.

Yes, in this case fictional. Where literary, dramatic , and budgetary considerations shape special effects scenes. I dont accept the "versus" debate premise that these should be treated as real examples of documentary footage.

They are not.

 

[fireproof78]

And, thus, we get the Star Wars SE and remastered Star Trek. The idea that what is seen on screen are limitations to the story rather than building up the story from those limits.

The idea that Romulans remained visually unknown to the Federation is ok to me, given the battle tactics involved seemed to be rather nasty. Even if bodies were recovered, what condition would they be in? There is limited scientific data as to the effect of vacuum on living tissue, probably due to lack of volunteers

I'm inclined to think that those who did know, where limited to Starfleet Intelligence and high ranking officers. Such information would probably be concealed to avoid destabilizing the fragile alliances within the newly formed Federation.

I see no reason to not take the spoken dialog in BoT at face value.

 

[Esirprus]

The Dominion made a big mistake conquering Betazed.

Or it was a important tactical move, deprive the Federation of a large populations of "Founder detectors." The Betazeds off of their homeworld would likely be several thousands (or more), and could only be in so many places.

Where was it said that Betazeds couldn't read Founders?

Lwaxanna's infatuation with Odo stemmed from the fact she could not hear his thoughts. Similar to how she reacted to the Holographic Rex at Rex's bar in Dixon Hill in Manhunt.

 

[Kemaiku]

Which is a dead give-away in itself. Someone who say, should be human, being a telepathic dead zone?