What is Star Trek and its future?

[fireproof78]

The Borg kind of went down that path in that they were trying to reach "perfection" but had little regard for the species being assimilated.

It's not that they held little regard for them. It's that they were helping them attain perfection.

The humanization of the Borg started during TNG with the appearance of Hugh. I think that was the third or fourth appearance of the Borg.

But they didn't regard them as "people." Merely tools on their path to "perfection." Everything else was "irrelevant.

I didn't mind the humanization of the Borg with Hugh, and it certainly allowed Picard to gain a different measure of closure after being Locutus, which I thought was interesting. But, that is a fair point that it started much earlier. I think it was done better in that episode as well.

But, the humanization came at the expense of the mystery and fear of the Borg as it continued on with VOY. TNG toyed with it, but left it more or less a mystery. Even "Descent" can't be really seen as Borg, because they were an aberration because of Lore.


Regardless, I don't mind recurring villains if they are done in a way that presents them as 3 dimensional with their motivations.

 

[Tim Walker]

The Borg were (when they were introduced) the ultimate menace that couldn't be reasoned with. And yet the Borg didn't see themselves as evil (just like no insect infestations see themselves as evil).


A recurring villian doesn't need to be racist and can still be used to good effect as long as they're not overused. But if you go back to reusing those villians too often then you have to evolve them to keep them interesting.

Which is one of the reasons why I think the Borg got a little overdone. They tried to evolve them, and humanize them with Seven, but ended up removing some of the mystery and the menace.

I think that the Borg should have been kept in the back ground. The viewers would know that the Borg would be out there somewhere. And they would still be the ultimate menace, if there were only a few encounters at most.

And if there were only a few encounters-in deep space-then survival might plausibly be attributed to luck. But not if the Borg definitely decided to assimilate Earth.

Resistance is futile.

Actually, the Dominion was more suited for sustained confrontation. Formidable compared to the Federation, but not so over whelming as to make resistance hopeless.

 

[uniderth]

Resistance is futile.

Not if you're plot protected.

 

[Jeffe525]

Actually, the Dominion was more suited for sustained confrontation. Formidable compared to the Federation, but not so over whelming as to make resistance hopeless.

That's actually why I loved the Borg. Picard and Janeway still defeated them (or at least survived, which is still a win) even though they were hopelessly outgunned.

Don't get me wrong. I still enjoyed the Dominion War, but I'd like to think that the UFP-Borg bloody-knuckled, drag-down, death match is still yet to come.

 

[Esirprus]

I said prior that the Dominion and Borg were portrayed as evil. I am aware that is not entirely true. The Dominion was portrayed at the beginning of season 7 as having dischord over Odo. It took too long to get there.
The Gamma quadrant was portrayed as either evil or inept.
There's also a scene that needed to come into play.
Quark and Garik discussing how similar to root beer the Federation is. Bubbly and sweet and happy. But that if you drink enough of it, you learn to like it. A lot like the Federation. Founders impersonating Federation officers may have been succumbing to that effect.

Voyager did better by introducing a rescued Borg (Seven of Nine) at the same time that they first encountered the Borg. Fraction of an improvement only. But there.

A new Trek should not have villains whose status you can tell with a glance. Even in TOS Kirk worked with a Klingon I think Kang to fight a being with laughter in Day of the Dove.

Mixed allegiances is what Trek is all about. Kirk had only one loyalty. To his morals. Spock, McCoy, Sulu, Uhura, Checkov and Scottie as well as the Enterprise and humanity taking precedence over obedience.

 

[Trekkin]

In TOS, there's wasnt really that many villainous races anyway - a vast majority of opponents were simply individuals, and the notable recurring 'evil' villains were two humans. The only 'bad' species I can remember were Klingons, Romulans, the Tholian and maybe the Orions. Even then, the former two were presented as being closer to political antagonists than 'evil' and the Tholian were simply really, really inhuman (like the Borg). The Klingons weren't even the villains in most of their episodes.

Stick closer to that mould with and away from morons like the Kazon, and recurring villains should be able to work.

 

[fireproof78]

Ok, there is a lot to unpack, and I generally don't do the line by line quoting, but I'm going to attempt to now.

I said prior that the Dominion and Borg were portrayed as evil. I am aware that is not entirely true. The Dominion was portrayed at the beginning of season 7 as having dischord over Odo. It took too long to get there.
The Gamma quadrant was portrayed as either evil or inept.

Evil or inept? While there were not many races encountered from the Gamma Quadrant (that I can remember) I don't think they were quite so black or white.

The Dominion became more multi-faceted as the arc continued on. There was a greater discovery of the inner workings, the goals of the Founders, and their desire for "order" rather than justice. Which, is a great way to look at Odo and his character arc, as he works towards legal protection, but prefers order than necessarily justice.

There's also a scene that needed to come into play.
Quark and Garik discussing how similar to root beer the Federation is. Bubbly and sweet and happy. But that if you drink enough of it, you learn to like it. A lot like the Federation. Founders impersonating Federation officers may have been succumbing to that effect.

Perhaps you could explain this better.

Voyager did better by introducing a rescued Borg (Seven of Nine) at the same time that they first encountered the Borg. Fraction of an improvement only. But there.

VOY actually tried to introduce the Borg early one, but the episode was poorly received, since the Borg shown were more of an isolated colony and not the Collective.

A new Trek should not have villains whose status you can tell with a glance. Even in TOS Kirk worked with a Klingon I think Kang to fight a being with laughter in Day of the Dove.

The Klingons were belligerents without always being overtly so. But, even Kang started out as wanting to conquer the Enterprise and take them all captive.

Mixed allegiances is what Trek is all about. Kirk had only one loyalty. To his morals. Spock, McCoy, Sulu, Uhura, Checkov and Scottie as well as the Enterprise and humanity taking precedence over obedience.

Sure, but that doesn't automatically mean a villain in Star Trek is a bad thing. It just means that not every Klingon is bad or that every Starfleet officer is good.

 

[Esirprus]

In TOS, there's wasnt really that many villainous races anyway - a vast majority of opponents were simply individuals, and the notable recurring 'evil' villains were two humans. The only 'bad' species I can remember were Klingons, Romulans, the Tholian and maybe the Orions. Even then, the former two were presented as being closer to political antagonists than 'evil' and the Tholian were simply really, really inhuman (like the Borg). The Klingons weren't even the villains in most of their episodes.

Stick closer to that mould with and away from morons like the Kazon, and recurring villains should be able to work.

I loved the Kazon because they were far from morons but looked like such. And yet Janeway would plow headlong into Borg space to retrieve Seven of Nine entering a Borg complex filled with Borg ships and succeed. The Kazon an apparently backwards race with no transporters no written language a name in place of a uniform managed to successfully board a Federation top of the line starship on intelligence and cunning alone, locate the transporter room without any kind of tricorder device identify from Seska's description what piece in the transporter was crucial and retrieve it, leaving Voyager stuck with a ship sticking out of their hull. While their social structure is vastly different from our own there is no question that Kazon have intelligence. Just that the intelligence they have is so ancient that we consider them stupid when Kazon to steal the Trabe's technology even had to learn it faster than Scottie learned to work the Bounty in Star Trek IV.

 

[Esirprus]

Fireproof I'd like to return the line by line but my phone doesn't get along with that action so I'll respond to each in a different post.

Evil or inept. These are the races I remember. The Argrathan tortured O'Brien in an attempt to get him to commit suicides for violating one of their laws. The Dosi are actually middle ground as are the Karemma. However they were both Dominion subjects. The Dosi attitude seemed to be "call us your subjects all you want. Defy our people will negotiate as violently as always. Oh you're dead? We'll get back to business as usual."
The Karemma didn't seem to care who supplied the paycheck so long as they got one.
The Wadi seemed to recreation oriented to care about podefeat. The Hunters whom I've named seemed more... "We're hunting a Tosk. Get out of the way!" And the Dominion had enough sense not to disobey. But everyone who had a political interest in the future of the Gamma quadrant on the Gamma half of the wormhole was either supporting the Dominion, like the Founders, Vorta Jem'Hadar and Argrathans or had already been conquered by the Dominion. In my work I extrapolate a lot about the Gamma half of that war and the unseen races who fought on that side of the wormhole to bring the Dominion's defeat.

 

[Esirprus]

Here's the link to the scene. Unless they changed it's name.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TREQGl54BU8

 

[Esirprus]

I know two episodes featured the Borg loosely prior to Scorpion the other episode is Blood Fever. A drone is found dead at the end of the episode. That's the extent of the Borg's presence in it.

But they did try to show that the Borg were not as oppressive as they were made out to be. See my post to Hela.

 

[Esirprus]

While you're quite right about Kang. Klingons are beings. The Dominion and Borg's primary purpose seemed to be so as to have a villain whose ships could be blown up without remorse which flies in the face of the Star Trek status quo of these are real races that we just haven't met, yet attitude.

 

[Esirprus]

Finally precisely. In my work I delve into a majorly confusing scenario where in each series I delve into problems amidst the Federation as much as alien planets. I want to sink home the point that exteriors mean far less than interiors. I've introduced new villainous races and characters from the same race whose ethics are good.

One of my favorite episodes is VOY's Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy. Aside from the comedic aspects because the Hierarchy guy who was spying on the doctor was such a 3D character despite being on the villain ship. Later in void the Hierarchy proved useful by warning of the plot to unite against Janeway's alliance giving them the time they needed to create a plan of defense. They were grey as all get out! That's what made them good.

 

[fireproof78]

Thank you for your clarification. First of all, the scene is very memorable, owing to the chemistry between Robinson and Schimerman. But, it is such an alien style dialog that I find so enjoyable.

I understand the context of the scene, but I just don't see any hint of the Founders' agents falling to the Federation ideals. But, it would be an interesting concept to explore.

If I am now understanding you better, the idea is that no race is entirely "evil" or villainous, save fo maybe the Dominion, in their portrayal. Even Cardassians, who we saw in TNG as belligerent and warlike are presented as 3-dimensional and multifaceted. The Dominion doesn't get that but that is partially owing to their concepts. The Vorta and Jem'hadar are genetically engineered to be subservient. It would have been nice to see a different side of them, but I can understand why that was not done.

For Klingons, in TOS, they may not have been "villainous" per se, as they are antagonistic to the Federation's goals. Which is fine. All three of the major Klingons we meet in TOS (Kang, Koloth and Kor) all have their own quirks and personalities, which makes them more memorable.

Honestly, I appreciate the idea and the concept of different ethics within races.

Also, as a final note, a Borg remnant was in VOY's Unity, I believe. While not the Collective as a whole, it did present a different facet of Borg life.

 

[Esirprus]

Precisely. And there were a few times DS9 had a chance to do Jem'Hadar as three dimensional and botched it everytime. The one who cured his addiction to white and had Bashir working on a cure for all his men. When O'Brien then uncharacteristicly destroyed his research!
Then there's the time that Weyoun asked Sisco to help him hunt down a group of rogue Jem'Hadar. Proving Jem'Hadar intelligence outweighs loyalty under certain circumstances.
When Quark found the Jem'Hadar infant in the debris he was sold. And Deep Space Nine had a chance to raise a Jem'Hadar.
Lastly of what I'm aware of. I missed the end of season 7. Was when a Vorta orders his Jem'Hadar into a trap the Vorta arranged with Sisco while the two enemies are trapped on a desert planet. Sisco tries to sway the leader so they won't have to kill the Jem'Hadar and fails. They wanted to make the Dominion too grim.
Also... Betazed! Luaxanna Troi is too much for the entire Enterprise D. And even too much for a Ferengi DaiMon who abducted her. Yet the Dominion could handle the entire planet of Betazed!? Unbelievable!

 

[Trekkin]

She wasn't too much for Odo. Evidently the Changelings have a degree of immunity to sheer annoyingness.

 

[Esirprus]

Explain?

 

[Trekkin]

Lwaxana and Odo were friends. He even married her in an otherwise godawful episode about Jake's killer muse-alien.

So it was a joke. That the Dominion might be able to cope with a planet of Lwaxanas.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Lwaxana and Odo were friends. He even married her in an otherwise godawful episode about Jake's killer muse-alien.

So it was a joke. That the Dominion might be able to cope with a planet of Lwaxanas.

Sounds worse than a planet full of Stella Mudds.

 

[xortex]

I think the inciting incident in any new Trek could be the Klingons attacking Earth and driven away by the Romulans who start a war with Earth to which the Klingons back down and refuse to help. Then fast forward thirty years to the time of exploration 100 years after Kirk. The Romulans don't want us being friends with the Vulcans. There is a mystery there. Was Spock a Romulan agent?