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What is it about TOS that makes it look so distinctly 1960s?

The Saturn v seen in tomorrow is yesterday or is it assignment earth I always get the mixed up lol very 1960,s . . .
It was “Assignment: Earth.” In the story, a rocket carrying an orbital nuclear-weapons platform is about to be launched. What we actually saw was stock footage of a Saturn V and Robert Lansing fiddling with a mock-up of the Apollo capsule's emergency escape tower.
It's true that 1960s television acting was stagey, mannered and by current standards pretty unpersuasive - often minimal effort seems to have been made to simulate normal speech at all. Film was already way ahead of television in that respect, and things have improved immensely since.
There's a time and a place for naturalism, and there are also times when a more stylized, theatrical approach is better. It's probably a generational thing, but I'm a fan of the “old school” style of scriptwriting and acting. For example, I love listening to the crisp, intelligent, literate dialogue in Forbidden Planet, in which the characters actually speak in complete sentences. Not many actors today could deliver Walter Pidgeon's lines in that film without sounding like they were reading a prepared speech.

Anybody can write dialogue that sounds the way people really talk. It takes talent to write the way most of us WISH we could talk.

YMMV.
 
I love listening to the crisp, intelligent, literate dialogue in Forbidden Planet, in which the characters actually speak in complete sentences. Not many actors today could deliver Walter Pidgeon's lines in that film without sounding like they were reading a prepared speech.

So do I, but it's dated nonetheless.

Anybody can write dialogue that sounds the way people really talk.

"Anyone" most certainly can not - believe me! Too many people seem to think they can. :lol:

It takes talent to write the way most of us WISH we could talk.

It takes talent to do either one well.
 
It's true that 1960s television acting was stagey, mannered and by current standards pretty unpersuasive - often minimal effort seems to have been made to simulate normal speech at all. Film was already way ahead of television in that respect, and things have improved immensely since.
There's a time and a place for naturalism, and there are also times when a more stylized, theatrical approach is better. It's probably a generational thing, but I'm a fan of the “old school” style of scriptwriting and acting...

You know, I've heard this for years and I just don't understand it. The delivery in TOS has always seemed far more naturalistic to me than the delivery in modern shows - especially TNG, in which no one raises their voices, no one talks over each other (a la Howard Hawks), everyone just says their side, and then the other person talks, then my turn again...
Many modern shows (outside of Trek) have their actors simply mumble and whisper. i don't think it's "stagey" to enunciate clearly.
The delivery in TOS is much more the way my friends and I speak to each other.
Now, there's a difference between naturalistic and realistic. In reality, people may mumble, be totally incomprehensible, and have no rapport with the person with whom they're speaking, and thus the dialogue has no flow or rhythm. Such delivery suits neither stage nor screen.
 
To be perfectly honest, modern "gritty" chic is actually more theatrical than any thing else. For fuck's sake, no place in the world is uniformly tinted shit-brown, not even death camps.
 
To be perfectly honest, modern "gritty" chic is actually more theatrical than any thing else. For fuck's sake, no place in the world is uniformly tinted shit-brown, not even death camps.

Now we're talking visual design rather than acting, though. The level of performance on American television has come way, way up over the decades.
 
Well, there is another consideration to throw into this discussion:

Consider three acclaimed TV series of their day that employed stage actors and favored the "stage voice":

1: L.A. LAW

2: STARGATE SG-1

3: LAW & ORDER

Here are three successful examples (any of which lasted longer in production than any specific TREK series) of shows on TV in the last 20 years that favored stage voice and won a loyal following and acclaim.
 
It's not true that either L.A. Law or Law & Order "favored stage voice" at all. It is true that lawyers tend to be portrayed with educated speech patterns. Other than that, they're not written substantially differently than Bochco's or Bruckheimer's shows and each actor pretty much brings what they bring to the part.

To suggest that any of the unambitious Stargate series represent high water marks in television drama just because they're popular skiffy adventure shows is just wrong. :lol:

You know what genre of American TV series does still frequently employ the exaggerated, melodramatic and stagey mannerisms typical of 1960s television? Sitcoms.
 
It's not true that either L.A. Law or Law & Order "favored stage voice" at all. It is true that lawyers tend to be portrayed with educated speech patterns. Other than that, they're not written substantially differently than Bochco's or Bruckheimer's shows and each actor pretty much brings what they bring to the part.

To suggest that any of the unambitious Stargate series represent high water marks in television drama just because they're popular skiffy adventure shows is just wrong. :lol:

You know what genre of American TV series does still frequently employ the exaggerated, melodramatic and stagey mannerisms typical of 1960s television? Sitcoms.

Probably because sitcoms are most often performed "before a live studio audience," so standard stage practice of making sure the guy in the back row can hear you is just plain common sense.
 
Having spent some time over the last quarter century thinking about this, it's occurred to me that the major difference beyond production values was the dramatic construction of the stories.

The early-to-mid-1960s was a fairly new era for television. It was a becoming a well-established medium, but some of the rules of how it operated were still being dreamed up.

Think of it as the difference between YouTube today and YouTube in 40 years. The rules of that particular medium are still being written and currently have a lot of similarity to television. This won't always be the case. I don't know what YouTube will look like in 40 years, if it's still around. But I know that the conventions of the medium will be very different.

There will come a point when the archived videos on YouTube somehow feel like they were produced in the 2000s.

Similarly, Star Trek was produced just as the medium of radio drama was coming to a close. There's a great deal of similarity between Star Trek and radio dramas.

Want an interesting experiment? Next time Star Trek is on, turn off the video. Just listen to it. In all likelihood, you'll be able to follow the story just fine. The characters will explain everything verbally.

This is because the conventions of the medium in the 1960s favored a "radio approach." Every aspect of the story is explained in detail, usually verbally.

Contrast this with the 2009 film. Regardless of what you think of it, I dare you to follow the plot without the video. In today's world, it's all about what you see. In the 1960s, it was more about what you heard.

Very few shows challenged this convention. Most would have a plot that moved from Point A to Point Z in an expository, radio-like manner.

That's the thing that tends to date the show the most. Stories were constructed with 1960s conventions that owed a great deal to radio.

Dakota Smith
 
Dakota wrote: "Stories were constructed with 1960s conventions that owed a great deal to radio."

Quite so.
I'd like some examples of these conventions that owed a great deal to radio. That's an awfully broad and vague characterization to make without any supporting arguments.
 
I grew up in Atlanta during the 1960's, and WSB AM radio had a brief revival of radio dramas. They replayed broadcasts of "The Lone Ranger" and "The Shadow" in particular. You could literally sit back on the porch in a rocker and listen to the show as it progressed. I even had my dad loan me a radio to listen to at night while going to sleep (this was YEARS before kids had TVs).

About five years later, my grandfather gave me a microphone and tape recorder, and I faithfully recorded the WTCG Channel 17 showings of Star Trek, and for YEARS I listened to Star Trek at night. Still no TV, no DVDs, just a radio and a tape recorder. I'd listen to the Braves and then listen to the taped episodes of Star Trek.

I was amazed that you could tell what was going on in almost every episode of Star Trek without any visual input. (The only exceptions I remember were "The Immunity Syndrome" and "Obsession," both of which relied on a very visual threat.)

Some years later at college, after I'd spent a small fortune on a VCR, I managed to start recording Star Trek on VHS. But even then, I'd occasionally whip out one of the audio tapes I'd recorded in the early 70's and just LISTEN.

Amusingly enough, one of my girlfriends at the time had audio tapes of the 13 episode Planet of the Apes TV series, and we spent one evening listening to her tapes. The Apes series simply didn't translate well to audio tapes. There were too many visually dependent scenes, and so you couldn't imagine what Burke, Virdon and Galen were doing. In Star Trek, you knew what was happening without the visual information.

So in that regard, I really think Star Trek's writing owed a lot to the radio dramas of the 1930's and 40's. Its writing was generally not visually dependent.

Your mileage may vary, of course...
 
I'm not a huge fan of Nicholas Meyers, but I know that he claimed that Trek and Mission:Impossible illustrated two really different approaches to TV: you could listen to Trek on audio and follow it easily, and you could watch M:I with the sound off and get almost all of what was going on, but if you did it the other way around the shows were almost unintelligible.
 
I'd like some examples of these conventions that owed a great deal to radio. That's an awfully broad and vague characterization to make without any supporting arguments.

Sure. I'm an Old Time Radio fan and have listened to a lot of OTR thrillers, detective, and SF. In fact, if you've never heard Dimension X and X-Minus-One, your next link needs to be here, at the Internet Archive.

From 1950-1951, then 1955-1958, Dimension X and X-Minus-One dramatized the best classic pulp SF of the day. To quote the intro from X-Minus-One:

Announcer: "Count down for blast-off. X minus five... four... three... two... X minus one... Fire!

(Music pounds, building up like a rocket blast, while chorus raises its collective voice with "aaaaaaaaaahhhhh!")

"From the far horizons of the unknown come transcribed tales of new dimensions in time and space. These are stories of the future, adventures in which you'll live in a million could-be years on a thousand may-be worlds. The National Broadcasting Company in cooperation with Street & Smith, publishers of Astounding Science Fiction Magazine present:

"X-- X-- x-- x-- MINUS -- MINUS --Minus-- minus-- ONE-- ONE-- One- one"

Heinlein, Bradbury, Asimov, Piper, all the greats of the day and dozens of lesser-remembered authors were dramatized every week straight from the pages of Astounding Stories. The dramatizations were professional, high-production-value productions that were highly faithful to the original work.

One in particular bears note: "The Green Hills Of Earth" by Heinlein. The story itself is of course classic ... but I guarantee you've not experienced it until you've actually heard Rhysling sing.

Furthermore, the medium itself was perfect for the story. It's a tale about a blind folk singer bumming his way around the Solar System. The fact that the listener can no more see the subject of his songs than Rhysling heightens the dramatic impact.

(In fact, my only qualm with the story is that it was episode 9 rather than episode 1 of the series. It was tailor made for radio. I wonder if Heinlein had that in mind when he wrote it?)

Go. Now. Listen.

In any case, this segues well into the subject of how this impacted TOS. Let me give a couple of quick, concrete examples:

The battle between Kirk, Decker, and the Planet-Killer in "The Doomsday Machine" is a good one. While there is some decent visual, the battle was written for radio. Kirk and Decker are constantly explaining what's going on. I paraphrase, but lines like these occur throughout:

"Scotty, let's see if we can draw that thing away from the Enterprise, can you get me phasers?"

"Kirk drew that thing away from us, now let's see if we can get it away from him." Then, immediately after succeeding: "Did it! Hard to starboard, put some distance between us and that thing!"

"Our phasers have no effect. They're just bouncing off of it!"

Now, part of this was SFX budget limitations and part of it was the way the writers had been used to working in radio.

In radio, action sequences were accomplished one of two ways: by narration or sound effect.

The really effective fights and action sequences that actually set the listener on the edge of their seat only used sound effects. The sounds were so specific, timed, and executed, that the listener knew exactly what was happening in a fistfight -- just from the sound effects.

Of narration, there were two kinds: omniscient and first-person.

The most dramatic first-person narrator in radio history was Jack Webb in Dragnet.

Hell, Jack Webb invented the police procedural drama, pretty much single-handedly.

The show didn't rely just on Jack Webb's voiceovers. Sometimes Friday and his partner would get into a scuffle and the fight would become a combination of effective sound effects and dialogue.

You'd hear as suspect's footsteps suddenly take off, then the cops footsteps a beat later. Friday might shout, "He's rabbiting!"

Then the sound of the footsteps would change, and from a distanct Friday would shout, "He's headed up the stairs, into that abandoned warehouse, Ben!" "I see it!"

Seconds later: "Watch it -- he's pushing that oil barrel -- !" followed by a dramatic thumpety-thump and a metallic crash. "You ok, Ben?" "Just nipped my arm, let's go!"

Back at "The Doomsday Machine" battle and applying this:

In a visual medium, the viewer doesn't need the battle explained to them the way a radio listener does. They can see it instead.

Since the viewer can see the Enterprise approaching the planet-killer, they don't need to be told about it.

Since the viewer can see the phasers hitting the Planet-Killer's hull and having no effect, they don't need to be told they're having no effect.

Since the viewer can see the Planet-Killer turning toward the Constellation, they don't need to be told about the change in course. Since they can see the Enterprise shooting at it and see it turn back, they don't need to be told that it happened.

It's just a mindset thing that you can really see in some of the best Old Time Radio. The writers were still thinking in terms of what the audience heard rather than what they saw.

It's just a mindset thing, and it's present in a lot of early TV. This isn't a criticism, by the way, just a note about the evolution of drama in the 20th Century. Stage turned to film, which was basically just aiming a static camera at a stage and inserting title cards where acting alone was insufficient to explain the action. Eventually, the conventions of the new medium of film were developed.

At about the same time, there was a branching into radio, which at first was more about written literature. An omniscient narrator would tell a story involving characters voiced by other actors. This evolved into some of the conventions of the medium that I mentioned.

A lot of radio writers went into television. They took their radio writing skills with them. It took a good ten years to discover how the conventions of TV worked best. With shows like Mission: Impossible and I, Spy, the writers were pretty successful in letting the pictures speak for themselves. By the 1970s, the conventions that applied solely to radio had been ejected.

(Except for police procedural drama, which maintain radio conventions to this day:

("Ladies and gentlemen, the story you are about to hear is true. Only the names were changed to protect the innocent."

("In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the police, who investigate crime; and the district attorneys, who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories."

(Law and Order like frak. It's Dragnet!)

I'm actually rather excited to see how online media will develop. As I say, at the moment, YouTube looks a lot like TV -- but there's no reason this need be the case.

If I were to predict, I would guess that the new medium that is YouTube will begin to take advantage of things only the Internet can offer: hyper-linking (which you already see with YouTube's annotation, but it will be more compex), insertion of content to be viewed at the viewer's discretion ... basically dramatic conventions that embrace the medium's key difference between it and any previous: complete interactivity.

The genre of online media will thrive in directions that exploit the interactivity of the medium. Stories may no longer be precisely linear. The viewer will be heavily involved in the direction of the content.

I don't know what it will look like any more than Edison could have predicted Yaoi. But I know it will be very, very interesting.

In any case, you still need to go listen to "The Green Hills Of Earth." If you've never heard it, your ears will love you for the rest of your life. :D

Dakota Smith
 
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It's most notable throughout the series with Sulu's lines:

"Our weapons had no effect, sir."

"But sir, that will take us into the Neutral Zone!"

"It's still coming right at us!"

Excellent post, btw, Dakota...
 
I'm an old time radio fan myself, so I don't need an education on the subject, but thanks for the links.

I was referring to the statement "stories were constructed with 1960s conventions that owed a great deal to radio" and while I see lots of examples of characters commenting on action that was shown and narrating, I don't see an example of story construction differing. Perhaps this is just the way we're using the terms.
 
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I'm an old time radio fan myself, so I don't need an education on the subject, but thanks for the links.

Well, it was mostly for the benefit of those fans not familiar with OTR. These young punks today have no concept of history. Most of them think the first real media SF was Star Wars. :P

Anyway, I apologize if it came off as condescending, as it wasn't intended to. I just get a little passionate about OTR.

I was referring to the statement "stories were constructed with 1960s conventions that owed a great deal to radio" and while I see lots of examples of characters commenting on action that was shown and narrating, I don't see an example of story construction differing. Perhaps this is just the way we're using the terms.

Well, it's more implied, I guess. OTR used dialog because it had to. The stories were plotted and moved by audio alone, with a heavy reliance on "throwaway dialog" to move the action. The same reliance on dialog drives early TV.

The easiest way to contrast it is with the 2009 film, which is almost entirely visually-driven. While the characters have significant dialog, there are entire sections of the film where the plot is entirely driven by the visuals alone, with no supporting dialog at all. The opening battle with the Kelvan is a perfect example: one cannot follow the action simply from the sound. The emotional tension is almost all driven by the visuals: the sounds support the visuals but in no way drive it.

I guess it boils down to the fact that radio, by necessity, had a lot of people talking. Talking isn't so necessary in a visual medium. In modern TV and movies, the dialog takes back seat to the visual.

It's true that as stories, there's not much you'd do differently. There are a lot of places where one might go back and say, "Do we need this dialog to explain what happened? Can't we show it instead and forgo the dialog?" I suspect that the pacing and tension of certain scenes and even episodes would change -- become a bit tighter, faster, probably. The stories themselves would stay very close to the original, they'd just be told with a heavier reliance on visuals to do the job.

Dakota Smith
 
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