Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device
I knew, it had nothing to do with ST.
I knew, it had nothing to do with ST.
What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device(s)
- Thread starter enterprisecvn65
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Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device
I can just imagine what the Mars Perimeter and Wolf 359 battles could have looked like if they had the resources used in DS9's Dominion Wars.
Lucas wanted to show total chaos int he battles on the ground and in space. When I saw it in the theaters I had no idea what the hell was going on in the battle and it wasn't until I watched it over and over again at home on VHS.
I can just imagine what the Mars Perimeter and Wolf 359 battles could have looked like if they had the resources used in DS9's Dominion Wars.
Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device
Yeah but even if they had the budget and/or technology to show Wolf 359 most people would have been able to follow the battle pretty well. They knew what Federation ships generally looked like and it was a big ass cube they were fighting, so even if the action was fast and furious it wouldn't have been "What the hell is going on" kind of action. In fact in First Contact that's what did happen. It was a lot of action, but you knew the Borg was the bad guy and all the ships trying do destroy it were Federation vessels.
In ROTJ the big Death Star battle had a lot going on, but it was pretty clear who was who. The Empire's main ships, as had been well established, were Star Destroyers and their small craft were versions of tie fighters. Any big ship that wasn't a Star Destroyer was a rebel ship and The Millennium Falcon, X-wings and Y-wings were known from previous films so that left only the A-wing as a new ship (The B-wing didn't feature in the battle) so it wasn't that hard to figure.
In ROTS you see this huge battle just suddenly explode on to the screen with no set up at all and there are literally hundreds of ships flying around of all sorts and sizes and, unless you were REALLY well read up on the prequel ships, you had almost no idea who was shooting at who or even what the hell the battle was all about. It was another of Lucas deciding the most important thing was to throw as much crap on the screen as possible to "dazzle" people and not really care to give any exposition about what the battle was all about or really give any major prior information about the ships involved.
Yeah but even if they had the budget and/or technology to show Wolf 359 most people would have been able to follow the battle pretty well. They knew what Federation ships generally looked like and it was a big ass cube they were fighting, so even if the action was fast and furious it wouldn't have been "What the hell is going on" kind of action. In fact in First Contact that's what did happen. It was a lot of action, but you knew the Borg was the bad guy and all the ships trying do destroy it were Federation vessels.
In ROTJ the big Death Star battle had a lot going on, but it was pretty clear who was who. The Empire's main ships, as had been well established, were Star Destroyers and their small craft were versions of tie fighters. Any big ship that wasn't a Star Destroyer was a rebel ship and The Millennium Falcon, X-wings and Y-wings were known from previous films so that left only the A-wing as a new ship (The B-wing didn't feature in the battle) so it wasn't that hard to figure.
In ROTS you see this huge battle just suddenly explode on to the screen with no set up at all and there are literally hundreds of ships flying around of all sorts and sizes and, unless you were REALLY well read up on the prequel ships, you had almost no idea who was shooting at who or even what the hell the battle was all about. It was another of Lucas deciding the most important thing was to throw as much crap on the screen as possible to "dazzle" people and not really care to give any exposition about what the battle was all about or really give any major prior information about the ships involved.
Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device
Okay so think back to 1716. Take a moment, and seriously use your imagination here.
Imagine showing those (soon to be frightened people) Jets, cars, cell phones, computers, space craft, cameras, radar, lasers, catscans, the internet, etc etc.
Imagine an 18th century mind trying to wrap its head around ANY of those things.
Do you seriously think they WON'T have Tricorders or something even MORE amazing in 300 years?
Seriously?
Wow. Just wow.
LOL
Okay so think back to 1716. Take a moment, and seriously use your imagination here.
Imagine showing those (soon to be frightened people) Jets, cars, cell phones, computers, space craft, cameras, radar, lasers, catscans, the internet, etc etc.
Imagine an 18th century mind trying to wrap its head around ANY of those things.
Do you seriously think they WON'T have Tricorders or something even MORE amazing in 300 years?
Seriously?
Wow. Just wow.
LOL
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Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device
I knew someone was going to pull that argument. BTW thanks for the "Wow...just wow" implying that I'm a total idiot.
In case you didn't know technology doesn't advance at a constant and predictable pace.
The space program is a perfect example. Yeah we send up more satelites and probes and crap, but how far have we advanced in other ways in the last half decade.
Let's see in 1961 America sent up its first man into space for a 15 minute flight. 8 years later we were walking on the moon. Since 1969 what has man done to further humans in space...well we haven't been back to the moon, talked about maybe going to Mars someday and taken all the technology we've had to build one space station that 5 people can live in at a time and has to be constantly resupplied. The rockets we use are actually less sophisticated than the Saturn V was and many would argue that the Space Shuttle a step back from the Apollo program.
So since 1969 we haven't even stepped forward a single inch as far as manned exploration have made some fairly modest gains as far as living in space and, despite all the crap you hear about mars, are several decades, if not a century or more from being able to pull that one off. According to you we should have colonized Mars by now and be well on our way to other places.
In aviation there is this amazing airplane that has holds record for speed and altitude for a pure airplane, employs many extremely unique construction techniques and materials and is considered by many to be the most sophisticated plane ever built to this day........oh and it made it's first flight in 1964- the Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird. Why if we're always advancing hasn't this plane's records and much of its technology been surpassed in 50 years?
Oh and guess what....swords have been around for centuries but they kept improving them in various ways, but eventually they hit a plateau and there is pretty much no way to make a sword any better than the best ones that have ever been made.
Cars are more sophisticated than 10 years ago, but the rate at which each subsequent generation of automobile is advancing is slowing over time. Cell phones 10 years from now are going to be a lot less advanced compared to the ones now from 10 years ago. And as for LOOK AT ALL THE AMAZING THINGS CELL PHONES CAN DO TODAY.....well most of those amazing things they can do are because there is a huge network of towers, satelites and other things that the phone picks up on. The cell phone itself doesn't do all those things, it just relays information that extremely complex networks transmit. You think a device that can fit in your pocket is going to do all the incredibly varied and complex things the tricorder can do and do it instantly on its own even in 300 years. Well I guess the Enterprise will be flying around at warp speed too. They'd better get moving though in 1/6th of that time we haven't been able to further the world speed record for a plane. But I'm sure we'll go from a space craft going from 25,000 MHP to the speed of light by then.....
Hate to burst your bubble but technological advancements aren't going to advance at the rate we've seen in the last couple of decades forever. Eventually things like computers and the like, if they haven't already, will hit a plateau and advancements will be at a much slower rate.
You remind me of those people who would say in 1930 "By the year 1950 we'll be flying around in cars" Then in 1950 they say it'll happen by 1980, then by 2000, then by 2030.....Let me know when the common flying car project gets off the ground and then talk to me about something like a tricorder
Wow.....just wow......
Okay so think back to 1716. Take a moment, and seriously use your imagination here.
Imagine showing those (soon to be frightened people) Jets, cars, cell phones, computers, space craft, cameras, radar, lasers, catscans, the internet, etc etc.
Imagine an 18th century mind trying to wrap its head around ANY of those things.
Do you seriously think they WON'T have Tricorders or something even MORE amazing in 300 years?
Seriously?
Wow. Just wow.
LOL
I knew someone was going to pull that argument. BTW thanks for the "Wow...just wow" implying that I'm a total idiot.
In case you didn't know technology doesn't advance at a constant and predictable pace.
The space program is a perfect example. Yeah we send up more satelites and probes and crap, but how far have we advanced in other ways in the last half decade.
Let's see in 1961 America sent up its first man into space for a 15 minute flight. 8 years later we were walking on the moon. Since 1969 what has man done to further humans in space...well we haven't been back to the moon, talked about maybe going to Mars someday and taken all the technology we've had to build one space station that 5 people can live in at a time and has to be constantly resupplied. The rockets we use are actually less sophisticated than the Saturn V was and many would argue that the Space Shuttle a step back from the Apollo program.
So since 1969 we haven't even stepped forward a single inch as far as manned exploration have made some fairly modest gains as far as living in space and, despite all the crap you hear about mars, are several decades, if not a century or more from being able to pull that one off. According to you we should have colonized Mars by now and be well on our way to other places.
In aviation there is this amazing airplane that has holds record for speed and altitude for a pure airplane, employs many extremely unique construction techniques and materials and is considered by many to be the most sophisticated plane ever built to this day........oh and it made it's first flight in 1964- the Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird. Why if we're always advancing hasn't this plane's records and much of its technology been surpassed in 50 years?
Oh and guess what....swords have been around for centuries but they kept improving them in various ways, but eventually they hit a plateau and there is pretty much no way to make a sword any better than the best ones that have ever been made.
Cars are more sophisticated than 10 years ago, but the rate at which each subsequent generation of automobile is advancing is slowing over time. Cell phones 10 years from now are going to be a lot less advanced compared to the ones now from 10 years ago. And as for LOOK AT ALL THE AMAZING THINGS CELL PHONES CAN DO TODAY.....well most of those amazing things they can do are because there is a huge network of towers, satelites and other things that the phone picks up on. The cell phone itself doesn't do all those things, it just relays information that extremely complex networks transmit. You think a device that can fit in your pocket is going to do all the incredibly varied and complex things the tricorder can do and do it instantly on its own even in 300 years. Well I guess the Enterprise will be flying around at warp speed too. They'd better get moving though in 1/6th of that time we haven't been able to further the world speed record for a plane. But I'm sure we'll go from a space craft going from 25,000 MHP to the speed of light by then.....
Hate to burst your bubble but technological advancements aren't going to advance at the rate we've seen in the last couple of decades forever. Eventually things like computers and the like, if they haven't already, will hit a plateau and advancements will be at a much slower rate.
You remind me of those people who would say in 1930 "By the year 1950 we'll be flying around in cars" Then in 1950 they say it'll happen by 1980, then by 2000, then by 2030.....Let me know when the common flying car project gets off the ground and then talk to me about something like a tricorder
Wow.....just wow......
Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device
One thing to note, and it spills into some of your other points -- just because we don't make large achievements like landing on the moon, doesn't quite mean that advances aren't being made sideways, either. An unimaginable amount of engineering, medical, architectural, and communications advances that we use in every day life and state of the art technology came from those space programs that aim for a little less than the moon. So although space exploration doesn't seem to do as much in terms of distance, it's positively impacted life on Earth by a great deal. Bigger and better does not necessarily matter when it comes to application and practicality (for example, your sword example is right about plateauing, but refinements in smithing and alloy techniques lead to scalpels, which are invaluable today in medicine. They're getting sharper, cleaner, and more accurate thanks to metallurgy; and so scalpels are used far more than any big sword today.).
And recently humanity just landed a probe on a comet, which is much, much harder than landing on the moon. All that stuff that nuScotty said in his transwarp beaming analogy (hitting a bullet with another bullet while riding a horse) applies to the comet mission.
One thing to note, and it spills into some of your other points -- just because we don't make large achievements like landing on the moon, doesn't quite mean that advances aren't being made sideways, either. An unimaginable amount of engineering, medical, architectural, and communications advances that we use in every day life and state of the art technology came from those space programs that aim for a little less than the moon. So although space exploration doesn't seem to do as much in terms of distance, it's positively impacted life on Earth by a great deal. Bigger and better does not necessarily matter when it comes to application and practicality (for example, your sword example is right about plateauing, but refinements in smithing and alloy techniques lead to scalpels, which are invaluable today in medicine. They're getting sharper, cleaner, and more accurate thanks to metallurgy; and so scalpels are used far more than any big sword today.).
And recently humanity just landed a probe on a comet, which is much, much harder than landing on the moon. All that stuff that nuScotty said in his transwarp beaming analogy (hitting a bullet with another bullet while riding a horse) applies to the comet mission.
Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device
There's one thing though: The more time passes, the more permanently inhabited space stations seem remote in our future.
There's one thing though: The more time passes, the more permanently inhabited space stations seem remote in our future.
Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device
Yes, you're right. But that won't stop me from buying IKEA accessories just in case it does happen in my lifetime. If not for me, then I guess my great-great-grandkids (and even then...).
Yes, you're right. But that won't stop me from buying IKEA accessories just in case it does happen in my lifetime. If not for me, then I guess my great-great-grandkids (and even then...).
Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device
You've got a valid point things do advance sideways, and I'm not arguing that. But the poster who responded to my doubts about the tri corder bring possible was basically saying "You idiot....look what we've done in 300 years that never would have been envision by people back then...it's inevitable that 300 years from now there'd be such a device because technological advancements are sure to keep developing at the same pace."
When the truth, and history backs this up, technology does not advance at a constant rate. There have been decades centuries were mankind basically lived the same way with almost no advancements. This guy seems to think because the things we've done over the last 20-30 years with computers and electronics it means this rate is going to continue unabated for the next 300 years so naturally a tri-corder would be possible by then. The advancements in computers and electronics are going to slow down at some point and we're not going to see some amazing breakthrough every few years. History has proven this time and time again. It's only modern humans in our arrogance who believe "Well OUR technological breakthroughs are going to just go non stop forever."
I was just using examples to show him that, uh, no...if that's the case why is the speed and altitude for a plane 50 years old, why hasn't man landed on Mars by now when we went from never having a man in space to the moon in a decade.
Of course in 300 years a lot of things are going to be more advanced. But he was being a smug little twit basically telling me how stupid I was for doubting that such a device, which is FAR beyond even comprehension at this point, will exist given our developments of the past.
Like I said when he shows me the everyman flying car program is almost within reach, then we can talk about something far more complex like the tri-corder.
You've got a valid point things do advance sideways, and I'm not arguing that. But the poster who responded to my doubts about the tri corder bring possible was basically saying "You idiot....look what we've done in 300 years that never would have been envision by people back then...it's inevitable that 300 years from now there'd be such a device because technological advancements are sure to keep developing at the same pace."
When the truth, and history backs this up, technology does not advance at a constant rate. There have been decades centuries were mankind basically lived the same way with almost no advancements. This guy seems to think because the things we've done over the last 20-30 years with computers and electronics it means this rate is going to continue unabated for the next 300 years so naturally a tri-corder would be possible by then. The advancements in computers and electronics are going to slow down at some point and we're not going to see some amazing breakthrough every few years. History has proven this time and time again. It's only modern humans in our arrogance who believe "Well OUR technological breakthroughs are going to just go non stop forever."
I was just using examples to show him that, uh, no...if that's the case why is the speed and altitude for a plane 50 years old, why hasn't man landed on Mars by now when we went from never having a man in space to the moon in a decade.
Of course in 300 years a lot of things are going to be more advanced. But he was being a smug little twit basically telling me how stupid I was for doubting that such a device, which is FAR beyond even comprehension at this point, will exist given our developments of the past.
Like I said when he shows me the everyman flying car program is almost within reach, then we can talk about something far more complex like the tri-corder.
Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device
Maybe you are. But I'm going to be cryogenieticaly frozen when I'm near death so when a cure is found for what killed me I can be thawed and go on to live for another.
Oh wait that's another one of those advances that they always talk about in the next 20-30 years, then when that deadline passes and it's still an impossibility they bump it up another 30 years or so.
It's BOUND to happen soon though....just look at how rapidly the internet developed. There's no way mankind's advances can ever be slowed down or hit limits
Maybe you are. But I'm going to be cryogenieticaly frozen when I'm near death so when a cure is found for what killed me I can be thawed and go on to live for another.
Oh wait that's another one of those advances that they always talk about in the next 20-30 years, then when that deadline passes and it's still an impossibility they bump it up another 30 years or so.
It's BOUND to happen soon though....just look at how rapidly the internet developed. There's no way mankind's advances can ever be slowed down or hit limits
Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device
Technology could take a bad hit if there is some kind of world wide crisis, too. I don't mean they would forget how to make chips or circuits but some advanced techniques may no longer be possible if either a certain element's supplies are exhasted or not available or steady power consumption is not possible, like a nuclear winter or post atomic horror.
Technology could take a bad hit if there is some kind of world wide crisis, too. I don't mean they would forget how to make chips or circuits but some advanced techniques may no longer be possible if either a certain element's supplies are exhasted or not available or steady power consumption is not possible, like a nuclear winter or post atomic horror.
Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device
Don't get your hopes up though. It looks like most "advances" are made in the Virtual world. In the real one, most cancers are as deadly as they were thirty years ago for example and news diseases appear nowadays that we have no idea how to cure or even keep from spreading further away.
Maybe you are. But I'm going to be cryogenieticaly frozen when I'm near death so when a cure is found for what killed me I can be thawed and go on to live for another.
Oh wait that's another one of those advances that they always talk about in the next 20-30 years, then when that deadline passes and it's still an impossibility they bump it up another 30 years or so.
It's BOUND to happen soon though....just look at how rapidly the internet developed. There's no way mankind's advances can ever be slowed down or hit limits
Don't get your hopes up though. It looks like most "advances" are made in the Virtual world. In the real one, most cancers are as deadly as they were thirty years ago for example and news diseases appear nowadays that we have no idea how to cure or even keep from spreading further away.
Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device
I'm not arguing, just adding, that's all.
I'm not arguing, just adding, that's all.
Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device
On the other hand, space exploration has ground to a halt and likely won't be picking up for many more decades.
On the other hand, space exploration has ground to a halt and likely won't be picking up for many more decades.
Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device
To be fair, that fit perfectly with Lucas's intended approach to the Star Wars films going back to the original...that it would be an immersive experience with little exposition as to how things worked, like watching a Japanese film with little knowledge of Japanese culture.
The scalpel is mightier than the sword...?
Always the optimist.
Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device
Assuming that one-way mission to Mars with that community of colonists ever gets off the ground, we at least have that to look forward to. But then it becomes planetary exploration after that.
Ouchies! I'd wager that botched surgeries because scalpels cut the wrong thing has indeed killed more people over the past century than swords
Assuming that one-way mission to Mars with that community of colonists ever gets off the ground, we at least have that to look forward to. But then it becomes planetary exploration after that.
Ouchies! I'd wager that botched surgeries because scalpels cut the wrong thing has indeed killed more people over the past century than swords
Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device
Understood. I have no beef with you. My problem is with the post that basically said "look at past 300 years. It's a certainty that given how far we've advanced since then that there will be a tricorder like device that is common....idiot."
Showing a complete lack of understanding that advancements in technology aren't constant. Some periods happen really fast, some slower. But they always hit a plateau and advance much more slowly then in the past.
Again it was about 60 years between the wright brothers and the SR-71 first flight. An amazing advancement over such a short time. If fight maintained that pace we should have planes that can go 20,000 mph by now. Yet the blackbirds records for speed and altitude still stand 50 years later.
I'm sure if there was the will and the money they could build a plane that could break those records. But it'd be only a few hundred miles per faster and a few thousand feet higher. It wouldn't be going Mach 30.
He was just upset about the reality of technology and, despite all those hokey "if you can dream it you can do it" type things mankind does have limits of things that will never be achieved
Understood. I have no beef with you. My problem is with the post that basically said "look at past 300 years. It's a certainty that given how far we've advanced since then that there will be a tricorder like device that is common....idiot."
Showing a complete lack of understanding that advancements in technology aren't constant. Some periods happen really fast, some slower. But they always hit a plateau and advance much more slowly then in the past.
Again it was about 60 years between the wright brothers and the SR-71 first flight. An amazing advancement over such a short time. If fight maintained that pace we should have planes that can go 20,000 mph by now. Yet the blackbirds records for speed and altitude still stand 50 years later.
I'm sure if there was the will and the money they could build a plane that could break those records. But it'd be only a few hundred miles per faster and a few thousand feet higher. It wouldn't be going Mach 30.
He was just upset about the reality of technology and, despite all those hokey "if you can dream it you can do it" type things mankind does have limits of things that will never be achieved
Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device
And if/when we make it to Mars which, despite what NASA wants us to believe, is a LONG way off, going on from there will be infinitely harder. Getting to Mars is a cakewalk compaired to what the next step in manned exploration would be from there.
And if/when we make it to Mars which, despite what NASA wants us to believe, is a LONG way off, going on from there will be infinitely harder. Getting to Mars is a cakewalk compaired to what the next step in manned exploration would be from there.
Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device
Given the current state of affairs we wouldn't even be able to walk on the moon again if we wanted to.
