What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device(s)

Bry_Sinclair · Mar 4, 2015

Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device

Characters who are immune to some affliction that takes down the rest of the crew (Data, Odo, EMH, Seven).

Wesley, the kid genius, saves the day and makes the experienced officers look like fools.

Transwarp beaming, super-warp, and death cure from NuTrek.

Richard Baker · Mar 4, 2015

Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device

Bry_Sinclair said: ↑

Characters who are immune to some affliction that takes down the rest of the crew (Data, Odo, EMH, Seven).
.
Click to expand...

Or the opposite- characters who should be immune (or so radically different that there is no common ground for influence) being affected along with regular crew.
Picard points this out about Data being affected in 'The Naked Now'- he is not biological and the fact if he gets punctured he can leak does not address the issue- my car can leak but it cannot catch my cold. In 'Power Play' Data gets possessed right along with the other sin the away team, but again, he is a mechanical, no matter how sophisticated. I can accept a spirit could influence a living being or even an alien being could influence a positronic computer, but to have it do both equally is pushing it.

I just think Data was such an interesting character they could not help themselves but to get him involved.

enterprisecvn65 · Mar 4, 2015

Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device

kirkfan said: ↑

enterprisecvn65 said: ↑

kirkfan said: ↑

On the other hand, space exploration has ground to a halt and likely won't be picking up for many more decades.
Click to expand...

And if/when we make it to Mars which, despite what NASA wants us to believe, is a LONG way off, going on from there will be infinitely harder. Getting to Mars is a cakewalk compaired to what the next step in manned exploration would be from there.
Click to expand...

Given the current state of affairs we wouldn't even be able to walk on the moon again if we wanted to.
Click to expand...

My parents remember that when we landed on the moon that it was the conventional wisdom that this was the first step and within 50 years there would be some moon colonies and perhaps hundreds of people would be living on the moon.

NASA had better get moving. The 50th anniversary is only 4 years away.

kirkfan · Mar 4, 2015

Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device

In Conundrum, Macduff can selectively erase everyone's memory on board, including Data AND the computer, he can implant false data in the computer and what does he do with that?

-He doesn't put himself as captain of the ship.

Why? He's from a people who's technology is about a hundred years behind Starfleet's. Yet he has no problem manipulating the computer's memory.

On one hand he's extremely skilled and knowledgeable and on the other, he's a complete IDIOT!

That's what I call plot convenience!

enterprisecvn65 · Mar 4, 2015

Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device

The Old Mixer said: ↑

enterprisecvn65 said: ↑

In ROTS you see this huge battle just suddenly explode on to the screen with no set up at all and there are literally hundreds of ships flying around of all sorts and sizes and, unless you were REALLY well read up on the prequel ships, you had almost no idea who was shooting at who or even what the hell the battle was all about. It was another of Lucas deciding the most important thing was to throw as much crap on the screen as possible to "dazzle" people and not really care to give any exposition about what the battle was all about or really give any major prior information about the ships involved.
Click to expand...

To be fair, that fit perfectly with Lucas's intended approach to the Star Wars films going back to the original...that it would be an immersive experience with little exposition as to how things worked, like watching a Japanese film with little knowledge of Japanese culture.

Not to hijack this to a Star Wars thread, but a lot of people believe that if Lucas had access to the technology and money for the OT that he did for the Prequels, they would have been crap films and not the social and film icons they are.

Lucas is hardly alone in failing to understand this....but often less is more.

Take what is often considered one of the best sci-fi fights in history: The Battle of Hoth. There were 5 Walkers, about 15 or so snowspeeders and a hundred or so defense troops and you knew the Imperial goal was to get to the shield generator. The fact the scale was reasonable allowed you to follow the action and mentally know how it was going. When a walker was destroyed you knew there were only 4 left.....when snowspeeders started dropping like flies you knew the rebels were in trouble.....You could see how the battle was going and feel the drama as opposed to hundreds of ships just randomly shooting at each other with no idea who is who and what the goal of the fight is. If Lucas had had modern technology he'd probably have had 400 snowspeeders and other vehicles fighting 100 walkers with thousands of supporting ground troops and smaller units exchanging fire nonstop for 30 minutes and we'd have no idea what the hell was going on until Vader enters the base and we go "Oh I guess the Empire won the fight"

Same in ST: TWOK's main conflict between the Enterprise and Reliant was great because you could follow what was going on. Despite the fact it was only two ships who didn't exchange a great volume of gunfire each hit had consequences that would shift the advantage to the other ship and almost every moment was important because of the fact it could be the one that lead to one ship winning the battle.

Compare it to something like Nemesis where the Enterprise and the Scimitar fight for something like 75 minutes straight firing shot after shot at each other, with no real serious damage inflicted, until they run out of ammo and are at a stand off........not the most intense sequence if you ask me.
Click to expand...

enterprisecvn65 · Mar 4, 2015

Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device

kirkfan said: ↑

In Conundrum, Macduff can selectively erase everyone's memory on board, including Data AND the computer, he can implant false data in the computer and what does he do with that?

-He doesn't put himself as captain of the ship.

Why? He's from a people who's technology is about a hundred years behind Starfleet's. Yet he has no problem manipulating the computer's memory.

On one hand he's extremely skilled and knowledgeable and on the other, he's a complete IDIOT!

That's what I call plot convenience!
Click to expand...

Yeah that was incredibly stupid to go to all that trouble to place yourself as 2nd in command.

Why not just make yourself captain and when Picard voices his moral objection to blowing that station to hell MacDuff could just say "Shut it. I'm in command here and I'm going to follow orders so knock it off or I'll have you thrown in the brig for insubordination."

Instead he leaves Picard in command giving him the authority to order the Enterprise to stand down until things are cleared up.

Brilliant.

kirkfan · Mar 4, 2015

Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device

^The writers could use a few lessons of mechanics.

BillJ · Mar 4, 2015

Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device

Bry_Sinclair said: ↑

Transwarp beaming...
Click to expand...

Seen in TNG.

super warp...
Click to expand...

Star Trek has always operated at the speed the plot requires.

and death cure from NuTrek.
Click to expand...

See: "The Neutral Zone" (TNG). Also, the transporters should've ended medical science in the 24th century. Yet, they somehow kept telling new stories.

kirkfan · Mar 4, 2015

Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device

BillJ said: ↑

Bry_Sinclair said: ↑

Transwarp beaming...
Click to expand...

Seen in TNG.

super warp...
Click to expand...

Star Trek has always operated at the speed the plot requires.

and death cure from NuTrek.
Click to expand...

See: "The Neutral Zone" (TNG). Also, the transporters should've ended medical science in the 24th century. Yet, they somehow kept telling new stories.
Click to expand...

After they de-aged Pulaski using the transporter, it was obvious that they had a cure for death!

Richard Baker · Mar 4, 2015

Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device

Using the Transporter to repeat the accidental duplication of Riker in 'Second Chances'- keep a spare one in the buffer if the away team doesn't make it...

kirkfan · Mar 4, 2015

Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device

Richard Baker said: ↑

Using the Transporter to repeat the accidental duplication of Riker in 'Second Chances'- keep a spare one in the buffer if the away team doesn't make it...
Click to expand...

Exactly! No one can even die from an accidental death because if they do you can always retrieve their latest transporter copy. So you can't die from aging, you can't die from degenerative disease caused by old age and you can't die by accident. That makes you practically immortal.

BillJ · Mar 4, 2015

Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device

We also shouldn't forget McCoy's magic pill from Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. Which allows someone to regrow a kidney in just a few minutes.

CorporalClegg · Mar 4, 2015

Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device

And the woman didn't even have to call him in the morning.

BK613 · Mar 4, 2015

Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device

Not sure if it rises to the level of worst, but I thought it somewhat boring/lazy that battle commands were reduced to "Attack pattern delta" type dialog.

The Old Mixer · Mar 5, 2015

Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device

enterprisecvn65 said: ↑

Not to hijack this to a Star Wars thread, but a lot of people believe that if Lucas had access to the technology and money for the OT that he did for the Prequels, they would have been crap films and not the social and film icons they are.

Lucas is hardly alone in failing to understand this....but often less is more.

Take what is often considered one of the best sci-fi fights in history: The Battle of Hoth. There were 5 Walkers, about 15 or so snowspeeders and a hundred or so defense troops and you knew the Imperial goal was to get to the shield generator. The fact the scale was reasonable allowed you to follow the action and mentally know how it was going. When a walker was destroyed you knew there were only 4 left.....when snowspeeders started dropping like flies you knew the rebels were in trouble.....You could see how the battle was going and feel the drama as opposed to hundreds of ships just randomly shooting at each other with no idea who is who and what the goal of the fight is. If Lucas had had modern technology he'd probably have had 400 snowspeeders and other vehicles fighting 100 walkers with thousands of supporting ground troops and smaller units exchanging fire nonstop for 30 minutes and we'd have no idea what the hell was going on until Vader enters the base and we go "Oh I guess the Empire won the fight"
Click to expand...

In the opening of ROTS, though, following the overall battle wasn't the point...the focus was on what Anakin and Obi-Wan were doing. The battle around them was supposed to be an awesome spectacle, but just backdrop. It was an exciting way to open the movie in media res, whereas taking the time to get across who was who and follow the details of the battle would have slowed down the beginning of the film.

Mind you, I'm no Lucas apologist and find plenty of fault in the prequels...but I didn't have a problem with the sequence in question. It did what it was supposed to do in the larger story.

spockboy · Mar 5, 2015

Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device

enterprisecvn65 said: ↑

spockboy said: ↑

enterprisecvn65 said: ↑

3. I know I'm going catch shit for this but....the tricorder. It can analyze pretty much any medical element of any species, it can tell what kind of chemicals or elements are in the air, soil, or water of anywhere, it can do a wide variety of things detecting radio waves, electromagnetic signatures and tons of other types of energy, it can tell how much time has passes since something happened, or the age of things, it can tell what someone died from, it can be jury rigged for a variety of functions needed to suit situations, in TSFS it was able to read the Genesis' CORE and tell it was unstable, and probably a dozen other things I've forgotten. And it does it all INSTANTLY!!!!! I know it's 300 years from now and, again, they need a device for plot reasons. .
Click to expand...

Okay so think back to 1716. Take a moment, and seriously use your imagination here.
Imagine showing those (soon to be frightened people) Jets, cars, cell phones, computers, space craft, cameras, radar, lasers, catscans, the internet, etc etc.
Imagine an 18th century mind trying to wrap its head around ANY of those things.

Do you seriously think they WON'T have Tricorders or something even MORE amazing in 300 years?

Seriously?

Wow. Just wow.
LOL
Click to expand...

I knew someone was going to pull that argument. BTW thanks for the "Wow...just wow" implying that I'm a total idiot.

In case you didn't know technology doesn't advance at a constant and predictable pace.

The space program is a perfect example. Yeah we send up more satelites and probes and crap, but how far have we advanced in other ways in the last half decade.

Let's see in 1961 America sent up its first man into space for a 15 minute flight. 8 years later we were walking on the moon. Since 1969 what has man done to further humans in space...well we haven't been back to the moon, talked about maybe going to Mars someday and taken all the technology we've had to build one space station that 5 people can live in at a time and has to be constantly resupplied. The rockets we use are actually less sophisticated than the Saturn V was and many would argue that the Space Shuttle a step back from the Apollo program.

So since 1969 we haven't even stepped forward a single inch as far as manned exploration have made some fairly modest gains as far as living in space and, despite all the crap you hear about mars, are several decades, if not a century or more from being able to pull that one off. According to you we should have colonized Mars by now and be well on our way to other places.

In aviation there is this amazing airplane that has holds record for speed and altitude for a pure airplane, employs many extremely unique construction techniques and materials and is considered by many to be the most sophisticated plane ever built to this day........oh and it made it's first flight in 1964- the Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird. Why if we're always advancing hasn't this plane's records and much of its technology been surpassed in 50 years?

Oh and guess what....swords have been around for centuries but they kept improving them in various ways, but eventually they hit a plateau and there is pretty much no way to make a sword any better than the best ones that have ever been made.

Cars are more sophisticated than 10 years ago, but the rate at which each subsequent generation of automobile is advancing is slowing over time. Cell phones 10 years from now are going to be a lot less advanced compared to the ones now from 10 years ago. And as for LOOK AT ALL THE AMAZING THINGS CELL PHONES CAN DO TODAY.....well most of those amazing things they can do are because there is a huge network of towers, satelites and other things that the phone picks up on. The cell phone itself doesn't do all those things, it just relays information that extremely complex networks transmit. You think a device that can fit in your pocket is going to do all the incredibly varied and complex things the tricorder can do and do it instantly on its own even in 300 years. Well I guess the Enterprise will be flying around at warp speed too. They'd better get moving though in 1/6th of that time we haven't been able to further the world speed record for a plane. But I'm sure we'll go from a space craft going from 25,000 MHP to the speed of light by then.....

Hate to burst your bubble but technological advancements aren't going to advance at the rate we've seen in the last couple of decades forever. Eventually things like computers and the like, if they haven't already, will hit a plateau and advancements will be at a much slower rate.

You remind me of those people who would say in 1930 "By the year 1950 we'll be flying around in cars" Then in 1950 they say it'll happen by 1980, then by 2000, then by 2030.....Let me know when the common flying car project gets off the ground and then talk to me about something like a tricorder

Wow.....just wow......
Click to expand...

Well I don't think you are an idiot at all or I would have said so.
I say it to idiots regularly

The "wow, just wow" was the fact that I was amazed that a Star Trek fan seemed to have difficulty grasping the idea of one of the most believable gadgets in Trek history NOT being a reality in 300 years.

Three hundred years?

Recently my girlfriend's mother was in the hospital for a heart procedure and we were visiting.
There was obviously a very high tech medical monitor on (which was completely unheard of only 40 years ago) and then the doctor came in holding a little portable device akin to Doctor McCoy's medical scanner.
I was amazed and questioned him immediately "Wow, what is that?" The doctor replied "I am checking her vitals" It didn't make a cool sound or anything but still!

So you can't imagine something that is ALREADY happening, eventually coming to fruition is 300 years?
Not questioning, you know, warp drive, transporters, dilithium crystals, intergalactic travel?
That, I will grant you, may take 600 years if at all.

What about Moore's law?

"Technology is growing exponentially, and since 1400 has doubled every 200 years (analogous to a computing phenomenon known as Moore's law, applied across all technology).
The next double-century (2000-2200) therefore promises no fewer than 150 breakthrough innovations on par with the steam engine, antibiotics and the airplane.

Again, I don't think you're an idiot at all, I think you are obviously intelligent
But wow....just wow (LOL)

Ghrakh · Mar 5, 2015

Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device

BillJ said: ↑

Bry_Sinclair said: ↑

Transwarp beaming...
Click to expand...

Seen in TNG..
Click to expand...

When?

kirkfan · Mar 5, 2015

Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device

Ghrakh said: ↑

BillJ said: ↑

Bry_Sinclair said: ↑

Transwarp beaming...
Click to expand...

Seen in TNG..
Click to expand...

When?
Click to expand...

I think he means in Bloodlines, but that wasn't transwarp.

enterprisecvn65 · Mar 5, 2015

Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device

spockboy said: ↑

enterprisecvn65 said: ↑

spockboy said: ↑

Okay so think back to 1716. Take a moment, and seriously use your imagination here.
Imagine showing those (soon to be frightened people) Jets, cars, cell phones, computers, space craft, cameras, radar, lasers, catscans, the internet, etc etc.
Imagine an 18th century mind trying to wrap its head around ANY of those things.

Do you seriously think they WON'T have Tricorders or something even MORE amazing in 300 years?

Seriously?

Wow. Just wow.
LOL
Click to expand...

I knew someone was going to pull that argument. BTW thanks for the "Wow...just wow" implying that I'm a total idiot.

In case you didn't know technology doesn't advance at a constant and predictable pace.

The space program is a perfect example. Yeah we send up more satelites and probes and crap, but how far have we advanced in other ways in the last half decade.

Let's see in 1961 America sent up its first man into space for a 15 minute flight. 8 years later we were walking on the moon. Since 1969 what has man done to further humans in space...well we haven't been back to the moon, talked about maybe going to Mars someday and taken all the technology we've had to build one space station that 5 people can live in at a time and has to be constantly resupplied. The rockets we use are actually less sophisticated than the Saturn V was and many would argue that the Space Shuttle a step back from the Apollo program.

So since 1969 we haven't even stepped forward a single inch as far as manned exploration have made some fairly modest gains as far as living in space and, despite all the crap you hear about mars, are several decades, if not a century or more from being able to pull that one off. According to you we should have colonized Mars by now and be well on our way to other places.

In aviation there is this amazing airplane that has holds record for speed and altitude for a pure airplane, employs many extremely unique construction techniques and materials and is considered by many to be the most sophisticated plane ever built to this day........oh and it made it's first flight in 1964- the Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird. Why if we're always advancing hasn't this plane's records and much of its technology been surpassed in 50 years?

Oh and guess what....swords have been around for centuries but they kept improving them in various ways, but eventually they hit a plateau and there is pretty much no way to make a sword any better than the best ones that have ever been made.

Cars are more sophisticated than 10 years ago, but the rate at which each subsequent generation of automobile is advancing is slowing over time. Cell phones 10 years from now are going to be a lot less advanced compared to the ones now from 10 years ago. And as for LOOK AT ALL THE AMAZING THINGS CELL PHONES CAN DO TODAY.....well most of those amazing things they can do are because there is a huge network of towers, satelites and other things that the phone picks up on. The cell phone itself doesn't do all those things, it just relays information that extremely complex networks transmit. You think a device that can fit in your pocket is going to do all the incredibly varied and complex things the tricorder can do and do it instantly on its own even in 300 years. Well I guess the Enterprise will be flying around at warp speed too. They'd better get moving though in 1/6th of that time we haven't been able to further the world speed record for a plane. But I'm sure we'll go from a space craft going from 25,000 MHP to the speed of light by then.....

Hate to burst your bubble but technological advancements aren't going to advance at the rate we've seen in the last couple of decades forever. Eventually things like computers and the like, if they haven't already, will hit a plateau and advancements will be at a much slower rate.

You remind me of those people who would say in 1930 "By the year 1950 we'll be flying around in cars" Then in 1950 they say it'll happen by 1980, then by 2000, then by 2030.....Let me know when the common flying car project gets off the ground and then talk to me about something like a tricorder

Wow.....just wow......
Click to expand...

Well I don't think you are an idiot at all or I would have said so.
I say it to idiots regularly

The "wow, just wow" was the fact that I was amazed that a Star Trek fan seemed to have difficulty grasping the idea of one of the most believable gadgets in Trek history NOT being a reality in 300 years.

Three hundred years?

Recently my girlfriend's mother was in the hospital for a heart procedure and we were visiting.
There was obviously a very high tech medical monitor on (which was completely unheard of only 40 years ago) and then the doctor came in holding a little portable device akin to Doctor McCoy's medical scanner.
I was amazed and questioned him immediately "Wow, what is that?" The doctor replied "I am checking her vitals" It didn't make a cool sound or anything but still!

So you can't imagine something that is ALREADY happening, eventually coming to fruition is 300 years?
Not questioning, you know, warp drive, transporters, dilithium crystals, intergalactic travel?
That, I will grant you, may take 600 years if at all.

What about Moore's law?

"Technology is growing exponentially, and since 1400 has doubled every 200 years (analogous to a computing phenomenon known as Moore's law, applied across all technology).
The next double-century (2000-2200) therefore promises no fewer than 150 breakthrough innovations on par with the steam engine, antibiotics and the airplane.

Again, I don't think you're an idiot at all, I think you are obviously intelligent
But wow....just wow (LOL)
Click to expand...

All right. Thank you for the clarification. Truce. Live long and prosper.

enterprisecvn65 · Mar 5, 2015

Re: What is/are the worst or most unbelievable plot convenience device

The Old Mixer said: ↑

enterprisecvn65 said: ↑

Not to hijack this to a Star Wars thread, but a lot of people believe that if Lucas had access to the technology and money for the OT that he did for the Prequels, they would have been crap films and not the social and film icons they are.

Lucas is hardly alone in failing to understand this....but often less is more.

Take what is often considered one of the best sci-fi fights in history: The Battle of Hoth. There were 5 Walkers, about 15 or so snowspeeders and a hundred or so defense troops and you knew the Imperial goal was to get to the shield generator. The fact the scale was reasonable allowed you to follow the action and mentally know how it was going. When a walker was destroyed you knew there were only 4 left.....when snowspeeders started dropping like flies you knew the rebels were in trouble.....You could see how the battle was going and feel the drama as opposed to hundreds of ships just randomly shooting at each other with no idea who is who and what the goal of the fight is. If Lucas had had modern technology he'd probably have had 400 snowspeeders and other vehicles fighting 100 walkers with thousands of supporting ground troops and smaller units exchanging fire nonstop for 30 minutes and we'd have no idea what the hell was going on until Vader enters the base and we go "Oh I guess the Empire won the fight"
Click to expand...

In the opening of ROTS, though, following the overall battle wasn't the point...the focus was on what Anakin and Obi-Wan were doing. The battle around them was supposed to be an awesome spectacle, but just backdrop. It was an exciting way to open the movie in media res, whereas taking the time to get across who was who and follow the details of the battle would have slowed down the beginning of the film.

Mind you, I'm no Lucas apologist and find plenty of fault in the prequels...but I didn't have a problem with the sequence in question. It did what it was supposed to do in the larger story.
Click to expand...

You may have a point. It's possible by that point in the series I had had reached my breaking point with the fact Lucas had obviously decided to use these films to shove as much special effects crap on the screen as fast as possible and things like characters, plot, drama and so on were just an inconvenience to him.
The battle on ROTS may have had a little more depth to it than what I think, but by then I was too jaded to notice.

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