Wolf 359 would have been the equivalent of Pearl Harbor. Not a lot of civilian deaths, but the Pacific fleet was decimated and it still galvanized the public on the mainland thousands of miles away.
What impact will the Dominion War have on Picard?
- Thread starter Jayson1
- Start date
I'm guessing you're either not in the US or too young to remember 9/11 firsthand. 9/11 was huge on the day it happened. Every commercial flight in American airspace was ordered to land ASAP. Shocked people from coast to coast were glued to their TVs . More evidence that you don't know much about it. It wasn't all about New York. There was also the attack on the Pentagon and United Flight 93. Comparing it to an earthquake is silly. There's not much you can do against earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes or other forces of nature other than try to make your buildings more resilient. What were we supposed to do after 9/11? Just say "stuff happens" and go back to our regularly scheduled programming?
OTOH, comparing Wolf 359 to an earthquake is probably apt: there would be nothing to strike back at, not even ersatz targets like random weak nations. And the Borg make mockery of "being prepared": they eat preparedness for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Feeling helpless is inevitable.
But just sitting back and enjoying the show is an option for that very reason - and also because apparently the Borg don't strike all that often. A bit like rabid islamists: they may strike gold twice in a century or something, but they won't go away altogether no matter what one does. Statistically, one is as safe as one gets by doing nothing.
To get a feel of the UFP citizen POV, we can establish the lower limit of giant horrid disaster frequency. In about a quarter of a century, we get assorted Borg raids, two big wars, two instances of global carnage near Earth, plus the discovery of at least two kinds of superbeing that can wipe out everything and anything by snapping their fingers if they get annoyed. It would seem that a citizen needs to have a high tolerance for the Doomsday Clock always being set at 4.7 seconds before midnight.
Timo Saloniemi
But just sitting back and enjoying the show is an option for that very reason - and also because apparently the Borg don't strike all that often. A bit like rabid islamists: they may strike gold twice in a century or something, but they won't go away altogether no matter what one does. Statistically, one is as safe as one gets by doing nothing.
To get a feel of the UFP citizen POV, we can establish the lower limit of giant horrid disaster frequency. In about a quarter of a century, we get assorted Borg raids, two big wars, two instances of global carnage near Earth, plus the discovery of at least two kinds of superbeing that can wipe out everything and anything by snapping their fingers if they get annoyed. It would seem that a citizen needs to have a high tolerance for the Doomsday Clock always being set at 4.7 seconds before midnight.
Timo Saloniemi
An earthquake is localized and unstoppable. One Borg cube can assimilate the whole planet, so it's hardly a good comparison. In fact, in First Contact, one Borg sphere was able to completely assimilate 21st century Earth, leading to 24th century Borgified Earth. Also, Starfleet did stop the Borg twice. In BoBW and in First Contact, although both times with Picard's help. There's no stopping an earthquake. Comparing the Borg to Islamists makes no sense. ISIS and al Qaeda are low-level threats. They can hurt a few hundred to a few thousand at a time, hence only terrorists. They can't take over the US. The Borg can quickly wipe out all life on Earth, or at least assimilate it.
I know we grew up with idealistic Federation, but DS9 pushed the needle via a variety of means to show us the universe is nasty and even the Federation, via Section 31, has its dark side. And we’d seen that dark side in The Undiscovered Country, too.
I also know some folks want their trek to be idealistic as a balm to today’s world. I’d propose that reflecting the world we have but showing there to be idealistic good guys is a balm.
As to the in-universe explanation, policy makers in government and the higher echelons by this point in time grew up in the era of the Borg, the dominion war and a variety of other troubles. Just as our world has become more narrow and inward focused it feels like the world the Federation inhabits is doing the same. Telling stories about how you make it to the other side of that journey is interesting.
I also know some folks want their trek to be idealistic as a balm to today’s world. I’d propose that reflecting the world we have but showing there to be idealistic good guys is a balm.
As to the in-universe explanation, policy makers in government and the higher echelons by this point in time grew up in the era of the Borg, the dominion war and a variety of other troubles. Just as our world has become more narrow and inward focused it feels like the world the Federation inhabits is doing the same. Telling stories about how you make it to the other side of that journey is interesting.
In short order the Cardassian war, the Borg, the Klingon war, the Dominion war and the Synth attack all took place. That's without taking into account the Breen attack and the fact paranoia about Changeling infiltrators likely led to Starfleet's change of direction. It's good we're seeing the consequences of these events rather than pretending they don't matter.
Whoosh!
That's the point going right over your head.
I don't expect anything.
The question was why the Dominion War isn't affecting Picard the way 9/11 affected our world. The answer: 9/11 didn't affect our world as much as, and in the ways we think it did. Same with how the Dominion War affected the Federation......it really didn't. that much
"We, we, we..."
Let's take that first part:
You just proved my point.
I'm 40, of course I remember 9/11. I remember exactly where I was when I heard.
9/11 was a big deal to us. It affected America deeply. Other countries varied from sad, to mildly upset, to glad it happened to us. There are societies that live with car bombings and constant death daily.
And we're just one country on one planet.
24th century Trek has a Federation made up of hundreds of worlds and probably hundreds of billions of aliens with thousands of cultures. How many people are in Starfleet? 100,000? How many fought and died in the war? 10,000?
Yes 9/11 was a big deal. And so was the Dominion War in Trek. Just not as big as we think.
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You're contradicting yourself. First you asked, "What was it to people outside NY?" As if it really wasn't anything. Now you're admitting that it was big for the rest of the country. You're comparing the Dominion War with car bombings? On a galactic scale, the Dominion War is analogous to World War II for Earth. Sure, there were countries that weren't combatants then, but you wouldn't find anybody who would say it doesn't affect them and they're not worried. Even the neutral nations knew they could be next if the Allies lost and some of them actually were invaded despite being neutral. Likewise, no planet in the Federation would have believed they would be safe from Dominion rule if Starfleet had fallen. That's why it wasn't just the Federation. All the major military powers of the Alpha Quadrant were involved.
I think the middle east might disagree that 9/11 only impacted America. We are still dealing the impact of 9/11 today. Also America was the only superpower at the time. When America gets impacted so does the rest of the world. Maybe if Bush doesn't scare people into getting a second term who knows where the world would be today.
Jason
Jason
The Xindi attack was 9/11. Vulcan imploding was 9/11. The Vengeance crashing was 9/11. Mars being set on fire is 9/11.
Trek really needs to get over 9/11.
Trek really needs to get over 9/11.
That will never happen because people have forgotten the tragic story of Station Salem-One. It's as if they want to mock those who survived by never talking about them at all? This despite the fact that if Station Salem-One hadn't existed it wouldn't have been their to prevent the witches invasion of 2245.
Jason
Jason
Nope, you just misinterpreted me. Which seems to be a habit for you. What did it mean for people in NY vs. outside NY vs. outside the us? Diminishing impact.
Says who? You? Apparently not.
The Dominion War isn't WW ll. Hell, look at the names. One affected a world, another hundreds of worlds.
Apples and oranges. Even during WWll, which you like to reference so much, most people weren't sitting around shaking in their boots daily for fear the Nazis were going to take over the world. There were out there living their lives. It affected them in the sense that they may have had loved ones in the war, heard about it on the radio and from friends, and felt patriotic and got war bonds or something. People in America weren't quaking in their boots terrified of when the axis would arrive.
Tell the writers to stop writing about 9/11. Seriously its a generational thing. As new writers come aboard maybe they will write about Obama.
My grandfather tells me differently. You know the craziness you see in "Man in the High Castle". That was my grandfathers generation's nightmare. Believe me they were afraid. Afraid enough to force 100,000 innocent Japanese-Americans into "detention" camps. Afraid enough to have nightly drill raids and craziness like the "battle" of Los Angeles. Fear is toxic and I remember the craziness of 9/11. How America went insane and invaded Iraq. That's why I totally buy into Picard and Stewart's amazing message of unity.
THe war itself might be a throw away line, but it would be the Almost straw that broke the camels back.. as in the Synth attack on mars was the final straw, and the Federation went isolationist and canceled the refugee fleet. I suspect that Picard took a ship and lead a small fleet to rescue what he could, and at the end he couldn't serve a starfleet that could leave people to die, that doens't care.. it wasnt "His Starfleet" by then..
But it is slightley understandable in that they had 200 years of realtive peace, then billions dieing in wars borg etc..
But it is slightley understandable in that they had 200 years of realtive peace, then billions dieing in wars borg etc..
My dad grew up a few blocks away from a Japanese relocation camp. Knew some of the families inside, even ran errands for them. He never forgot that. I'm convinced that's why he was a staunch defender of civil rights until the day he died.
Living through such times does tend to have a lasting impact on people, maybe even entire generations.
No, it doesn't. The world was changed, life changed, and it is a pivotal moment in recent history.
Trek, like all art, is reflecting current culture. It will move on when culture moves on.
Well, Today we have people joining the military that were born AFTER 9/11 .. They've grown up only knowing war..
As for the federation, after the Borg, the dominion, synths, they a subset of starfleet or federation that have always been proponents of isolation got power and instituted there desires..
As for the federation, after the Borg, the dominion, synths, they a subset of starfleet or federation that have always been proponents of isolation got power and instituted there desires..
How so? One planet is the going definition of localized in Trek. And most folks who fall victim to space calamities on planets can only blame themselves for choosing the wrong planet. Much as with earthquakes.
Now this is a better argument. At the conclusion of "BoBW", would the good citizens think "Starfleet has this, moving on"? Or would they rather go "Yet another nigh-unstoppable space threat - we got lucky this time, and will die the next time around, but there's no point in losing sleep over that"?
Again, why fixate on scale? Islamists are a global threat - there's one in every household, as far as we can (not) tell. That's much closer to a force of nature than, say, the full might of the Russian army is.
Funnily enough, while the US has been doing a lot of hurting in the War of Terror, it has never managed to score 2,996 fatalities on one blow. It's orders of magnitude below Islamist terrorism there nowadays.
(But what is this about "a generation of soldiers who have known nothing but war"? The US has always been at war; the gaps between those are much shorter than a generation or a career. Much as with Starfleet, which is always fighting, even though the audience can't readily tell.)
Timo Saloniemi
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