What if Seven had died instead of Janeway?

[DGCatAniSiri]

You know, I have been attempting to make a personal rule - do not under any circumstances get involved in the epic debate about Janeway's death. Here I am breaking it, because I am a masochist. -_-

I do not like my characters to be immortal. If I know going in that everyone deemed 'important' is going to survive the story being told, I let my mind wander because they'll survive. There's no dramatic tension.

I didn't like Janeway's death as written in Before Dishonor, but I never took Lady Q's appearance to mean she'd be back - Q himself appeared to Picard on his deathbed in 'Tapestry', it didn't seem a stretch to think that Lady Q did the same for Janeway.

The explanation for Janeway's actions given in Full Circle - that she went to that cube as a way to learn information on the Borg that would be able to prevent the Voyager crew from being sent back to the Delta Quadrant, even with the 'reliable' slipstream drives - made me feel better about the fact that she died, because she died attempting to find a way to help her crew, her family.

And personally, I approve of the idea of exploring the lives of these characters without Janeway - her presence has been such a dominant and driving force in the lives of her crew, and depriving them of that entirely, not just having her behind a desk as the crew ventures out into the unknown, has a story I am interested in seeing told.

I can understand how Janeway is such a prominent and popular figure for people. I love the character and Kate Mulgrew's portrayal. But again, I am interested in the stories told of how to go on with life without someone who is so important to you. I loved Jadzia on DS9 and Tara on Buffy, but their deaths did not drive me away from the shows, because there was a story being told about the lives of the people around them continuing on after their deaths. Granted, their names weren't in the title of the show, but they were both members of an ensemble, they were both large parts of people's lives. How we deal with death is just as important as how we deal with life. Maybe this is just the fact that two family members of mine passed away about six months ago, but I have an interest in seeing the lives of characters who are dealing with the loss of someone who has been so important in their lives.

 

[Tachyon]

You know, I have been attempting to make a personal rule - do not under any circumstances get involved in the epic debate about Janeway's death. Here I am breaking it, because I am a masochist. -_-

I've tried to do the same.

 

[Brit]

Explain, well not trying to appear snarky but several of us have tried to explain and I realize that hasn't fit into a lot of people's concept of how people react to situations as opposed to how they are "supposed" to react.

It doesn't much matter if you personally like immortal characters or not, and we fully realize that this is a valid point of view. I've given reasons over and over that "IN GENERAL" females like the ending of their entertainment to be "The illusion of Happily Ever After". Books marketed to women actually have this as an editorial requirement, it is that important.

Now I know lots of women that don't have this requirement, I know lots of men that do. Individual preferences aside, approximately half the books sold have the editorial requirement of "Happily Ever After." If it wasn't important, the requirement wouldn't exist.

I was never involved with "Buffy" but I did notice that it was Tara that died and not Buffy herself, and Jadiza is not Sisko. Try telling the DS9ers that Sisko isn't the heart of Deep Space Nine. It doesn't matter if he is even active in the story, it is important that he is in the Trek universe somewhere.

Do Janeway supporters believe that they can get stories with her and Chakotay together, maybe? Do they believe they will get stories about Janeway having babies, no we don't believe we will ever see that? What we do need is Janeway alive in the Trek universe and we need that for "The illusion of Happily Ever After."

What I have learned is that the people who call us "Closed Minded" with such a vengeance are closed minded in their own way. What I do know is that feelings and emotions can never be completely explained if the person you are trying to reach doesn't have a frame of reference to that feeling in the first place.

Can you explain why it's so important that she stay dead? Can you explain it in a way to me (who doesn't have that feeling) to change my mind? In all likelyhood you cannot, no more than all my explanations have dented your belief. What I can do is understand that you do feel that way, I can refrain from making subtle statements, calling your point of view crazy. I will try to keep from writing the names that I call some of you when trying to post.

As far as being "Fic Writers", how does that make our opinion less important? Have any of you thought that the idea of Janeway and of Voyager has caused people to pick up pencils and actually produce something readable or not. That the "idea" begets other ideas. Fic writers don't see spending time on a board like this, picking episodes or characters apart. What they do is rewrite it, they make it right by their standard. As much as some of you might discount "Fan Fiction", the truth is that there are wonderful fan fics out there.

A very good example would be "The Cardassian Mask" by L. R. Bowen. This is true action/adventure, set early in Voyager's journey, actually written in 1995 and 1996. The characters are developed differently. Instead of just saying "I'd like it better if Voyager..." she wrote it.

What I don't understand is why the fact that I'm a Fic Writer, means my opinion should be discounted.

Feelings are real and very difficult to explain, but one thing I do know is that I have respect for the question framed as Just Kate did, and none at all for the jab given by Dark Gilligan.

Brit

 

[Frazzled]

A fictional character as a role model. It's beyond my understanding.

The same could be said of anyone 'famous', any sort of 'celebrity' who is held up as a role model.

We do not really know people like, oh I don't know.... Obama? Nelson Mandela? Mother Teresa? Apart from the small proportion of folk who have actually known them in person. We only see what the media portrays. So in a way, our perception of these real people is just 'fiction'. The Obama in our heads doesn't exist. Yet loads of people see such celebrities as role models.

In my opinion it is just as feasible to hold up a fictional character as a role model. In fact it's maybe more feasible as we can get to know a lot more about our fictional characters, we hear their deepest thoughts and feelings sometimes which we never really do with celebrity real life people.

I'm not saying I do hold Janeway up as a role model, I don't think I do I've never considered it, I'm saying that if I or anyone else did they'd be as or more sensible than anyone who holds up these celebrity public figures as role models.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

I never said anything bad about Fan-fic writers, or said your opinion was less important. I just said that I notced some of the people most upset over Janeway's death WERE fan-fic writers. That's all. There is no insult there, just an observation.

 

[AuntKate]

I think it is high time for Trek to explore a mature relationship between a captain and a significant other, and I think the J/C relationship is well-suited for such an exploration. I think fanfic tends to focus on relationships, and so that might be why fanfic writers/readers are so upset at Janeway's death just as she and Chakotay were beginning to go in that direction.

 

[Tachyon]

I think it is high time for Trek to explore a mature relationship between a captain and a significant other, and I think the J/C relationship is well-suited for such an exploration.

Actually there is Picard/Crusher relationship going in the books right now.

 

[JustKate]

Well, but they are in the books, aren't they? I haven't read them, but I understand that two of our captains are having major life changes in recenty released books.

Spoiler: Spoilers regarding Trek books

I've read that Picard and Crusher are now married, as are Riker and Troi, of course, and both couples are expecting bouncing baby ensigns, if they haven't been born already.

Oh, I see now that Tachyon has beat me to it.

 

[KimMH]

I never said anything bad about Fan-fic writers, or said your opinion was less important. I just said that I notced some of the people most upset over Janeway's death WERE fan-fic writers. That's all. There is no insult there, just an observation.

I think you have the cart before the horse. I think the people who are most upset about the death of Janeway are the most motivated to create acceptable storylines for her.

 

[JustKate]

^ I expect it works different ways, depending on the person. What comes first, the fanfic writer looking for inspiration or a topic that inspires someone to become a fanfic writer?

 

[JustKate]

I've given reasons over and over that "IN GENERAL" females like the ending of their entertainment to be "The illusion of Happily Ever After". Books marketed to women actually have this as an editorial requirement, it is that important.

Now I know lots of women that don't have this requirement, I know lots of men that do. Individual preferences aside, approximately half the books sold have the editorial requirement of "Happily Ever After." If it wasn't important, the requirement wouldn't exist.

[snip]

Do Janeway supporters believe that they can get stories with her and Chakotay together, maybe? Do they believe they will get stories about Janeway having babies, no we don't believe we will ever see that? What we do need is Janeway alive in the Trek universe and we need that for "The illusion of Happily Ever After."

You have a lot in this response, Brit, so I hope you don't mind if I focus on what I'm specially interested in - I'll leave the rest to others.

Let me start by summarizing what I believe are your main points that address my question about why Janeway, married and probably a mother, is important to you and to other people who share your taste. Do please correct me if I go wrong:
1. Many people (particularly but not exclusively women - not all women, but many) want all their fiction to end "Happily Ever After."
2. You, Brit, are one of these people.
3. Therefore, you want your scifi to end this way as well? I'm putting a question mark here because while I think this is what you're implying, you don't actually say this explicitly, as far as I can tell. And I also included a question mark because I don't think pure scifi does have happy endings all that often. But then again, maybe you don't read pure scifi - a vague term, I know, but I can't think of a better one right at the moment.
4. You particularly want this for Janeway because she's your favorite character and the one you identify with most. I don't know if you've actually said that here, but I believe you've said so elsewhere.
5. And...by "Happily Ever After" you don't just mean a happy ending, a la "All Good Things." You mean Janeway, successful, happy, married (preferably to Chakotay) and a mother. Yes?

Did I get that right? If so...

I'll leave aside the idea of non-happy endings - this topic has been thoroughly done by others and you've explained your feelings well. Besides, although I don't demand all happy endings, I do generally prefer that most of my fiction have endings that are at least hopeful. (Lord of the Rings, for example has a happy ending, though it's tinged with some sadness, too - but it's an...uplifting kind of sadness.) So we aren't that far apart on the general idea of "happy endings are nice."

Where we differ, I think, is our definition of a happy ending. There are lots of different kinds of happy endings in real life - so why shouldn't fiction have more than one kind of happy ending, too? That's how I feel. But you apparently feel differently? You want Janeway to be one of those women who has it all - career, marriage, children? Do I have that right? And you're not all that interested in any other kind of happy ending?

Again, I'm not criticizing - I'm just trying to see if I understand, so if I've mistated anything, do let me know.

As far as being "Fic Writers", how does that make our opinion less important? Have any of you thought that the idea of Janeway and of Voyager has caused people to pick up pencils and actually produce something readable or not. That the "idea" begets other ideas. Fic writers don't see spending time on a board like this, picking episodes or characters apart. What they do is rewrite it, they make it right by their standard. As much as some of you might discount "Fan Fiction", the truth is that there are wonderful fan fics out there.

I don't think Destro was putting down fanfic writers - that's certainly not how I interpret his remarks. I just asked my question and he made an observation that there seems to be some overlap between people who write VOY fanfic and people who are particularly upset by Janeway's death. Even if this turns out not to be perfectly true...well, it's hardly insulting, as far as I can tell. I mean, lots of people are upset by Janeway's death, and clearly some of them do write fanfic.

 

[teya]

It doesn’t matter if she is fictional or not. There are fans that love her and they feel disenfranchised by her death. She was the Captain, she had power, what woman wouldn’t love that character.

I'm a woman, 52 years old, and I don't love Janeway.

One big problem is that some fans don’t understand a different point of view.

I perfectly understand your POV. You apparently don't understand the POV of hte women who don't think the same way.

After all you said, and I quote: "What woman wouldn't love that character?"

Well, surprise! Some of us don't.

We don’t want to be the little woman. we want to be Janeway, and one of the ways we get to be Janeway is reading about her in books or watching the episodes.

Some of us have real-life role models like Janeway. Some of us *are* real life role models like Janeway.

And we absolutely do not want to be Seven of Nine, because she is the Robin of Voyager.

Again, thank you so much for speaking for women.

You *do not* speak for me.

Growing up as an ethnic, religious and racial mutt in an America that was less diverse than it is today, I very much relate to Seven of Nine. She's not the Robin of Voyager. She's the Spock of Voyager.

 

[Brit]

Just Kate, thanks for your well thought out post. I knew going in we were not in agreement but I also knew that your question was an attempt to understand and clearly not the jabs that do come my way.

Actually I don’t need Janeway to have babies lol. I’m 62 and well past the baby fantasies. However that said, I do have a daughter who is 31 and she wants that scenario for Janeway very badly. Even the J/C shippers are pretty divided on whether Janeway and Chakotay would: a. be together in the delta quadrant, b. only be together after they return from the delta quadrant, or c. if babies are involved or not. The key to all three though depends on Janeway being alive.

I grew up reading romance and science fiction, that combination was what attracted me to Voyager fan fiction in the first place. But I also was drawn more to the character driven stories of Zienna Henderson and later Marion Zimmer Bradley’s Darkover. Until recently Science Fiction was thought of as something only enjoyed by males, but women have started to produce character driven Science Fiction stories that are marketed as “romance” for the most part.

So now we are getting books like “Moonstruck” by Susan Grant with Admiral Brit Bandar as the heroine or Linnea Sinclair’s “Gabriel’s Ghost” and “Shades of Dark” with starship Captain Chasidah “Chaz” Bergren. I am very attracted to these books in much the same way I am attracted to the character of Kathryn Janeway, and I can clearly see that these books appeal to a largely untapped until now, audience and one that is growing. So I not only think Pocket Books did a disservice to the Janeway fans, I think that they are also missing the boat sales wise.

Brit

 

[teya]

I think it is high time for Trek to explore a mature relationship between a captain and a significant other,

They did that with Sisko & Kassidy.

 

[Brit]

Again, thank you so much for speaking for women.

You *do not* speak for me.

And thank you so much for taking what I was saying out of context and trying to put a different spin on it. In the second paragraph I said

I've given reasons over and over that "IN GENERAL" females like the ending of their entertainment to be "The illusion of Happily Ever After". Books marketed to women actually have this as an editorial requirement, it is that important.

I did not feel the need to say "IN GENERAL" in each paragraph.

I would never attempt to speak for you, but you shouldn't take general statements and make them seem to be pointed at all.

I think it is high time for Trek to explore a mature relationship between a captain and a significant other,

They did that with Sisko & Kassidy.

In the Trek Lit forum I once said that women were not interchangeable, couples are not either.

Brit

 

[teya]

Again, thank you so much for speaking for women.

You *do not* speak for me.

And thank you so much for taking what I was saying out of context and trying to put a different spin on it. In the second paragraph I said

I've given reasons over and over that "IN GENERAL" females like the ending of their entertainment to be "The illusion of Happily Ever After". Books marketed to women actually have this as an editorial requirement, it is that important.

I did not feel the need to say "IN GENERAL" in each paragraph.

I would never attempt to speak for you, but you shouldn't take general statements and make them seem to be pointed at all.

Brit

I wasn't even responding to you post about what women want in fiction. I was responding to the post that included this question:

"What woman wouldn't love that character?"

Well, as shocking as it might be to you, SOME women don't.

As for taking general statements the wrong way--maybe you shouldn't *make* general statements.

ETA: And the quote you did out of context was directly related to your statement that said women don't want to be Seven of Nine.

Again, I have perfectly valid reasons for liking that character, whether you want to believe them valid or not.

 

[teya]

In the Trek Lit forum I once said that women were not interchangeable, couples are not either.

Brit

Again, you take the quote out of context.

AuntKate said it was time there was a mature adult relationship involving a commanding officer in Trek, which implied that had never happened before.

I pointed out that it had.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

I've given reasons over and over that "IN GENERAL" females like the ending of their entertainment to be "The illusion of Happily Ever After". Books marketed to women actually have this as an editorial requirement, it is that important.

Now I know lots of women that don't have this requirement, I know lots of men that do. Individual preferences aside, approximately half the books sold have the editorial requirement of "Happily Ever After." If it wasn't important, the requirement wouldn't exist.

[snip]

Do Janeway supporters believe that they can get stories with her and Chakotay together, maybe? Do they believe they will get stories about Janeway having babies, no we don't believe we will ever see that? What we do need is Janeway alive in the Trek universe and we need that for "The illusion of Happily Ever After."

You have a lot in this response, Brit, so I hope you don't mind if I focus on what I'm specially interested in - I'll leave the rest to others.

Let me start by summarizing what I believe are your main points that address my question about why Janeway, married and probably a mother, is important to you and to other people who share your taste. Do please correct me if I go wrong:
1. Many people (particularly but not exclusively women - not all women, but many) want all their fiction to end "Happily Ever After."
2. You, Brit, are one of these people.
3. Therefore, you want your scifi to end this way as well? I'm putting a question mark here because while I think this is what you're implying, you don't actually say this explicitly, as far as I can tell. And I also included a question mark because I don't think pure scifi does have happy endings all that often. But then again, maybe you don't read pure scifi - a vague term, I know, but I can't think of a better one right at the moment.
4. You particularly want this for Janeway because she's your favorite character and the one you identify with most. I don't know if you've actually said that here, but I believe you've said so elsewhere.
5. And...by "Happily Ever After" you don't just mean a happy ending, a la "All Good Things." You mean Janeway, successful, happy, married (preferably to Chakotay) and a mother. Yes?

Did I get that right? If so...

I'll leave aside the idea of non-happy endings - this topic has been thoroughly done by others and you've explained your feelings well. Besides, although I don't demand all happy endings, I do generally prefer that most of my fiction have endings that are at least hopeful. (Lord of the Rings, for example has a happy ending, though it's tinged with some sadness, too - but it's an...uplifting kind of sadness.) So we aren't that far apart on the general idea of "happy endings are nice."

Where we differ, I think, is our definition of a happy ending. There are lots of different kinds of happy endings in real life - so why shouldn't fiction have more than one kind of happy ending, too? That's how I feel. But you apparently feel differently? You want Janeway to be one of those women who has it all - career, marriage, children? Do I have that right? And you're not all that interested in any other kind of happy ending?

Again, I'm not criticizing - I'm just trying to see if I understand, so if I've mistated anything, do let me know.

As far as being "Fic Writers", how does that make our opinion less important? Have any of you thought that the idea of Janeway and of Voyager has caused people to pick up pencils and actually produce something readable or not. That the "idea" begets other ideas. Fic writers don't see spending time on a board like this, picking episodes or characters apart. What they do is rewrite it, they make it right by their standard. As much as some of you might discount "Fan Fiction", the truth is that there are wonderful fan fics out there.

I don't think Destro was putting down fanfic writers - that's certainly not how I interpret his remarks. I just asked my question and he made an observation that there seems to be some overlap between people who write VOY fanfic and people who are particularly upset by Janeway's death. Even if this turns out not to be perfectly true...well, it's hardly insulting, as far as I can tell. I mean, lots of people are upset by Janeway's death, and clearly some of them do write fanfic.

That is it exactly. I don't read fan fiction, but I have nothing against those who write it or read it. I just noticed some of the more vocal "Janeway's death protesters" were involved in fan fic and was curious about the connection, that's all.

 

[AuntKate]

In the Trek Lit forum I once said that women were not interchangeable, couples are not either.

Brit

Again, you take the quote out of context.

AuntKate said it was time there was a mature adult relationship involving a commanding officer in Trek, which implied that had never happened before.

I pointed out that it had.

Oops. I missed the final seasons of DS9 when our independent station went NBC and started airing the series at 1 a.m. Monday mornings. I tried to record them only to realize that the start time varied if one of the #(^$)$@ football games aired on Sunday night went into overtime.

Perhaps I should qualify my comment to a woman captain in a mature adult relationship.

 

[teya]

In the Trek Lit forum I once said that women were not interchangeable, couples are not either.

Brit

Again, you take the quote out of context.

AuntKate said it was time there was a mature adult relationship involving a commanding officer in Trek, which implied that had never happened before.

I pointed out that it had.

Oops. I missed the final seasons of DS9 when our independent station went NBC and started airing the series at 1 a.m. Monday mornings. I tried to record them only to realize that the start time varied if one of the #(^$)$@ football games aired on Sunday night went into overtime.

Perhaps I should qualify my comment to a woman captain in a mature adult relationship.

Um, Kassidy was a captain--just not a Starfleet captain.