What if Seven had died instead of Janeway?
- Thread starter AuntKate
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Actually, you're mistaken. IIRC, every popularity poll done in the Voyager forum has had Captain Janeway winning by a wide margin. She is, by far, the most popular character in the series.
Would I be right in guessing from the marketing, and now from Janeway's death, that TPTB wanted Seven to be most popular and maybe even believed that she was most popular?
And then this just made the fans react by writing even more Janeway fanfic etc?
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I think Seven was marketed specifically for Trek's "target audience" so it was assumed that she was the more popular. This is not to say she does't have fans outside the target but those fans weren't what TPTB were aiming for.
Also, as the first woman Trek captain there was naturally some backlash. However, I can't imagine why TPTB would deliberately turn their back on such a large group of fans - that just doesn't make financial sense. The only conclusion I can reach is that someone did not do their homework and Janeway was judged to be a lot less popular than she actually is.
Well, that person should have his/her ears boxed, then. To treat the first female captain and most popular Voyager character like this is reprehensible.
Of course, I wonder if Janeway's death was done for just this reason--to see what the reaction would be and find out whether there really is interest in Voyager. I think that the sale of Voyager books, more than those of any other series, has suffered from the plethora of fanfic, some of it quite good. The "usual Trek novel" just doesn't cut it with this group, and, from what I hear, "Full Circle" does a much better job of "fitting" the real demographic.
Killing Janeway was a mistake, and I hope TPTB at Pocket Books are greedy enough to revive the captain (supposing that they are looking for profits). I say, "Swallow your pride and just 'do it.'"
I'm saving up my money to buy the novel that has her return in it--and all the intervening novels, as well.
What I have heard is that many who haven't liked Voyager in the first place very much, like Full Circle a lot. Majority of the fan reviews I have read so far have been surprisingly positive. So the situation is still somewhat open when it comes to FC.
And for me fanfic and Trek books are in different leagues. In both categories there are good stories and crappy ones, but why I read fanfic or books, what constitutes a good fanfic or good book, are two separate things. I look for different things from them.
And for me fanfic and Trek books are in different leagues. In both categories there are good stories and crappy ones, but why I read fanfic or books, what constitutes a good fanfic or good book, are two separate things. I look for different things from them.
Fanfic is, without a doubt, different from the novels, because fanfic tends to focus on a single pairing (at least in my experience) while the novels include the entire crew, or most of it. I don't think that the published books should go in that direction, but they should mine the interest that is obviously there for more "relationship" driven plots and deeper characterization.
I've read neither novel, but I have seen reviews in which the reader is relieved that Janeway's death is handled better in "Full Circle" than in "Before Dishonor" precisely because Janeway is closer to the character we knew on screen. That kind of attention to personality and the connections between the crew is what I, as a Voyager fan, would prefer to read.
However, I won't read "Full Circle" because of the death of my favorite character. To me, it is offensive to finally have a novel that supposedly "gets it right" only to have the same novel destroy the character I most admire.
I don't think there would have been nearly the outrage if Seven had been the one killed in these novels.
I've read neither novel, but I have seen reviews in which the reader is relieved that Janeway's death is handled better in "Full Circle" than in "Before Dishonor" precisely because Janeway is closer to the character we knew on screen. That kind of attention to personality and the connections between the crew is what I, as a Voyager fan, would prefer to read.
However, I won't read "Full Circle" because of the death of my favorite character. To me, it is offensive to finally have a novel that supposedly "gets it right" only to have the same novel destroy the character I most admire.
I don't think there would have been nearly the outrage if Seven had been the one killed in these novels.
I agreed with you Aunt Kate, I wasn't going to read FC either, but my curiosity got the better of me. I got it secondhand so as not to 'support pocket books'
I don't regret it, but I didn't enjoy it either. I would agree that Janeway was more in character than in BD, but her death in itself isn't covered in FC, she's there for the first half and very much in character then in the second half there's just people receiving the news and their reactions with some flashbacks. For people who haven't read BD to make it make sense some of the people tell some of the other people what happened, eg Troi explains briefly to Tuvok how she died.
In BD I thought she was very 'Admiralish' - which I know some people have used as a good reason for her to be killed off but I wouldn't agree - especially after seeing the old Janeway resurface in FC. I think Peter David just didn't have a handle on her and chose to make her a bit kind of stuffy whereas Kirsten Beyer knows her much better. Very frustrating that this happens when they decide to chop her down.
For now Fanfic rules for me, I read loads while struggling through FC to cheer me up, especially nice long meaty Post Endgame stuff with Janeway still alive.
I don't regret it, but I didn't enjoy it either. I would agree that Janeway was more in character than in BD, but her death in itself isn't covered in FC, she's there for the first half and very much in character then in the second half there's just people receiving the news and their reactions with some flashbacks. For people who haven't read BD to make it make sense some of the people tell some of the other people what happened, eg Troi explains briefly to Tuvok how she died.
In BD I thought she was very 'Admiralish' - which I know some people have used as a good reason for her to be killed off but I wouldn't agree - especially after seeing the old Janeway resurface in FC. I think Peter David just didn't have a handle on her and chose to make her a bit kind of stuffy whereas Kirsten Beyer knows her much better. Very frustrating that this happens when they decide to chop her down.
For now Fanfic rules for me, I read loads while struggling through FC to cheer me up, especially nice long meaty Post Endgame stuff with Janeway still alive.
I wouldn't have wanted 7 of 9 killed. I was however upset that Janeway was killed. And this from someone who never really cared for her to begin with.
Ding ding ding! It seems to me that of all the Treks, it's Voyager that skews female and older. Trying to shove this demographic into the "let's blow up a planet and be badass!" young male slot is like trying to pound the proverbial square peg.
It's true that a lot of fanfic is utterly stupid. But the best writers out there put out better - and far more demographically appropriate - novels than Pocket. You have to sift through a lot of shit to find it, but stuff like vanhunk's Ethan Bellamy blows the last ten years of Pocket's efforts out of the water.
Why Pocket hasn't picked up on this I don't know - perhaps it is an ingrained snobbery that fanfic isn't "real writing"? Again, I would defy anyone to read stuff like EB and still think no good can come from fanfic.
Actually, you're mistaken. IIRC, every popularity poll done in the Voyager forum has had Captain Janeway winning by a wide margin. She is, by far, the most popular character in the series.
On other boards I've visited, Seven polls as high or higher than Janeway.
In the novels, probably not. For myself, I just look at it as Voyager's over and done and I don't really care anymore. There's always fanfic.
Besides, the novels aren't canon.
This doesn't mean I'm not a fan of the character. It means that I think all the angst regarding Janeway's death is way overdone.
Agreed. If Voyager's fans skew older and female, that's neither here nor there. What I can't fathom is the degree to which said fans identify with Janeway on a personal level (despite the on-screen inconsistency in her behavior from season to season), some even likening her as a role model. A fictional character as a role model. It's beyond my understanding.
You may not be able to fathom it, but I assure you that it truly does exist, that Pocket Books by making the decision to Kill Janeway's character has been taken as a personal affront by many fans. Janeway was one of the first characters in Trek that many women could identify with.
It doesn’t matter if she is fictional or not. There are fans that love her and they feel disenfranchised by her death. She was the Captain, she had power, what woman wouldn’t love that character.
One big problem is that some fans don’t understand a different point of view. You say she was inconsistent, well that may be true from your point, it’s not true for everyone.
Way back in the thirties and forties the DC comic book writers wanted to give Batman a sidekick, so they invented Robin. They thought the boys would love the character, someone their age that got to run around with Batman. But the truth was that all those boys didn’t really care about Robin, they wanted to be Batman himself.
We don’t want to be the little woman. we want to be Janeway, and one of the ways we get to be Janeway is reading about her in books or watching the episodes. And we absolutely do not want to be Seven of Nine, because she is the Robin of Voyager.
You may think from your point of view that it’s all overdone, but I can tell you that it isn’t and it’s not going to stop until she is brought back properly. We want her alive and most of us want her in a mature relationship with Chakotay. There are many that would like to see her have children. (She expressed a desire for children in the episode “The Q and The Grey”).
Almost a century ago Arthur Conan Doyle sent Sherlock Holms down a waterfall to his death. He was tired of writing the character and thought he would never want to write another Sherlock Holms story. The fans forced him to bring Holms back, because you see the fans wanted him.
We want Janeway. You may not understand it, but you should, and you ought to respect it.
Brit
I'm glad you brought this up, because it's come up before in other threads and I've always meant to ask for more information but never had a good opportunity (the thread always seemed to move along too quickly).
I'd like Janeway brought back, too, if it can be done plausibly and would make for a good story, but why this...preoccupation with getting her a husband/ "committed partner"/ whatever you want to call it and children? I mean, there are lots of ways to have a good life now, and that surely ought to be even more the case in the 24th century...Even if she does want children and doesn't get them, you can have a good life even if you don't get everything you want. Obviously, since most people don't get everything they want and presumably won't in the future, either.
So why the passionate desire for this way?
I'm not being snotty or snide or dismissive, I swear. I'd really like to know.
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I think it is because there are a lot of big Janeway fans here who are heavily involved in writing fan fiction about these subjects, and they would like to see these things happen "for real".
I'm not into fan fiction and don't share their feelings, though I do understand them.
And just for the record, I dislike Janeway's death in the books. Unlike many others I don't have a problem with a major character dying (very rarely) but only if it is handled well. Since I feel that Kirk, Data and Janeway have had badly written or just plain lame deaths I don't have a lot of faith in Trek deaths be it in the movies/tv/or books. I want a death that is incredibly well written and has a lot of meaning. None of the mentioned deaths have given me that feeling. Since imo none of these deaths have delivered what I have wanted, I would rather that they just stay away from them.
I would like to see Janeway return in a good story. But like you JustKate, I don't really care whether she is involved with Chakotay or has children. I never personally saw the series going in this direction and don't really care for the idea for it.
But again, I understand that there are those who really want that and that is fine.
On the "who is more popular" issue, I don't think polls on these boards really mean much. That doesn't mean they mean nothing either. Maybe Janeway is the most popular character, I don't know. I'm just basing it on my own personal experiences of talking with more casual Trek fans, and they usual mention Seven or the Doctor as their favorite from Voyager and then Janeway. No proof at all, just my general feeling. I freely admit that the Doctor is my favorite Voyager character (though I also like Janeway and Seven a great deal).
I'm not into fan fiction and don't share their feelings, though I do understand them.
And just for the record, I dislike Janeway's death in the books. Unlike many others I don't have a problem with a major character dying (very rarely) but only if it is handled well. Since I feel that Kirk, Data and Janeway have had badly written or just plain lame deaths I don't have a lot of faith in Trek deaths be it in the movies/tv/or books. I want a death that is incredibly well written and has a lot of meaning. None of the mentioned deaths have given me that feeling. Since imo none of these deaths have delivered what I have wanted, I would rather that they just stay away from them.
I would like to see Janeway return in a good story. But like you JustKate, I don't really care whether she is involved with Chakotay or has children. I never personally saw the series going in this direction and don't really care for the idea for it.
But again, I understand that there are those who really want that and that is fine.
On the "who is more popular" issue, I don't think polls on these boards really mean much. That doesn't mean they mean nothing either. Maybe Janeway is the most popular character, I don't know. I'm just basing it on my own personal experiences of talking with more casual Trek fans, and they usual mention Seven or the Doctor as their favorite from Voyager and then Janeway. No proof at all, just my general feeling. I freely admit that the Doctor is my favorite Voyager character (though I also like Janeway and Seven a great deal).
Well I've noticed a link between Voyager fan fiction writers and the people who are most upset about her death, I feel like there is something to that. Maybe they feel that it messes up what they are trying to do with their own writing? Or maybe I'm completely wrong?
But I'm sure one of them would be happy to explain further.
But I'm sure one of them would be happy to explain further.
I am a J/Cer, but I have to agree with this. I am happy to leave J/C romance in the fanfic, to be honest. I actually don't like the idea of Voyager book concentrating on J/C romance alone. I could take it as a one of the sub-storylines, but not as the main thing. Just like in Full Circle, for instance. It was there for those to enjoy who care about it, but it was not the main thing of the story. I get my romance fixes from well written fanfic. What I personally want from books is good sci-fi with adventures in alien worlds, drama and all of my favorite characters involved. (That's why I absolutely loved Voyager's virtual season 8 for instance.)
And as far as I am concerned, the time line written in Full Circle is only one of the alternative time lines. I have couple of more in my own head as well.
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