What if "First Contact" was the first time we ever saw the Defiant?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Admiral Archer, Mar 12, 2018.

  1. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That would not be possible. Active Duty military personnel can not be ambassadors.
     
  2. ItIsGreen

    ItIsGreen Captain Captain

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    But Starfleet's not a military organisation... ;)
    Also, it's 300 years in the future.
    Also also, it's fiction. :shrug:
     
  3. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, well, while giving that subject as wide a berth as possible, Starfleet is a very obvious military parallel in the Star Trek lore, or at least a stand-in and indeed they incorporate many modern day (and primarily American) military customs and traditions. Therefore we can assume safely that just as one can't serve in the military while being an ambassador, one can also not serve in Starfleet and be an ambassador either.
     
  4. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Premium Member

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    I'm sure that First Contact was the first time some folks saw the Defiant. Many people dropped out on DS9 before the Defiant was ever introduced.
     
  5. MadeIndescribable

    MadeIndescribable Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Not to mention the more casual fans who might only see the films.
     
  6. trekshark

    trekshark Captain Captain

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    I could have sworn I remember dialog where Worf is asked about it and he says being an ambassador didn't agree with him. Deleted scene maybe?
     
  7. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    A deleted Nemesis scene, IIRC.
     
  8. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It was supposedly in an early draft of the script that leaked summer 2001. That is, it is in that script, and the script is surprisingly accurate to the movie. But it also spells the character names wrong (most notably, Geordi is Jordy) so the actual source of this script is sketchy.

    Still, Worf mentioning his time being an ambassador was not included in the novelization, so it was obviously excised from the script before the filming draft was written
     
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  9. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I could see Worf doing this, perhaps be on detached duty to serve as a Ambassador.
    Takes some vacation time for the wedding of his two close friends, Picard gets him attached temporarily to the Enterprise (TDY) to get free passage between Earth and Betazed.

    This would explain why Worf seemed to be a part of the crew, instead of a passager, he was part of the crew.

    Maybe the Enterprise's regular security chief took this opportunity to take some leave of his own?
    Possibly the Ambassador to the Klingon Empire is expected to be a serving military officer, otherwise the Klingon High Council won't take the Ambassador seriously.

    The Federation is composed of hundreds of species and (probably) many thousand of cultures. Having Federation Ambassadors be serving military could easily be the standard, with non-military being the rare exception.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
  10. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    K'Ehleyr wasn't. Neither was B'Elanna when she held the position in the Endgame future.
    All the other ambassadors we've seen for Federation races were civilians, with any military careers they may have had having taken place in the past. Indeed, Spock became an ambassador after he retired from Starfleet. Also, the Klingon's own ambassador in the TOS movies is himself a civilian.
     
  11. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Hard to say. From DS9 we know that Betazed had a military. Perhaps Laxanna was a active duty General in the Betazed forces while also being a Ambassador.

    In TUC, Spock was a diplomaic envoy while still serving in Starfleet.
     
  12. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No, there is just a reference to "outdated defenses" but not an outright reference to a Betazoid military. Indeed, it was specifically because of Starfleet's inaction the planet fell to the Dominion.
     
  13. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes.

    If the defenses were Starfleet, why would they be consider "outdated?"

    Sounds more like the defenses were something that was "not Starfleet," sounds more like what Betazed's own indigenous planetary military forces were using to protect the planet.

    The best that they could, with what they possessed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
  14. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Because not everyone gets the fanciest toys. Regardless, we know from the episode that it's because the Tenth Fleet dicked off that Betazed fell to the Dominion. Whether Betazed did or didn't have a military is besides the point. The fall of Betazed is Starfleet's fault. Sisko even says so.
     
  15. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Actual that was the sole point.
     
  16. MadeIndescribable

    MadeIndescribable Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Honestly it could be either, but I'd say Starfleet is the most likely answer.

    Picard once lamented how "outdated" the Stargazer was when he was her captain, even in peace time not every single ship/starbase would have been up to spec. Given there was a war on it makes sense that Starfleet would use everything they could get their hands on, regardless of age. It would also make sense for the older stuff to be stationed far away from the Cardassian border, on planets such as Betazed.

    Also when Bajor was planning to become a member of the Federation it was mentioned that the Bajoran Militia would be absorbed into Starfleet. That doesn't mean that every Federation member would no longer have their own military, but would most likely also have occured when Betazed joined too.
     
  17. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I take absorbed to mean linked or connected, and not that the militia would essentially cease to exist, and it's former personnel and assets become Starfleet's.

    The militia would need to learn to interact with Starfleet, and Starfleet the same with the militia. Co-operation, communications protocols, practice joint maneuvers and operations. Learn to compliment each other.

    As a member there would be membership obligations, if another member needs help, Bajor would be expected to provide assistance. Similar if the entire Federation as a whole were in need of Bajor's military (or other abilities) Bajor would come running.

    it would make sense that the Bajor militia would form links as well with the closer member's militaries (or whatever it is they might have).

    Kirk: "And the highest of all our laws states that your world is yours and will always remain yours."