What if all the "Kirk" name drops were "Archer" instead?

[ED-209]

So in the last half of season 7 they name drop Kirk a few times, the most memorable one been:

"You've had more first contacts than James Kirk" or something along those lines.

So given this was Voyagers final year they must of done Enterprise was coming, so why didn't they do a little bit sly self promotion and name drop Archer a few times? So

"You've had more first contacts than Jonathan Archer" then you could have a "who is Archer?" mini advertising campaign, the 90s equivalent of #WhoIsArcher.

That would of also nicely tied him in with established Trek lore.

 

[Timo]

I'd have loved that. But what if they decided they absolutely had to change the name of the ENT lead character to Marcus Flint instead?

There are plenty of reasons for such things: somebody named Archer makes a public ass of him- or herself in the meantime, some owner of that name finds out and sues, the writers decide on a new backstory for the character, the actor decides he wants to be a Marcus or then not do the gig at all... Heck, we only got a Kathryn Janeway because the actor refused to be an Elizabeth.

It would still have been fun for the heroes to go "Hey, remember the great Archer" all the time, the audience going "Huh? Who's this Archer again?" again and again!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Finn]

It’s a shame there’s no trek version of Lewis and Clark...

 

[UssGlenn]

I'd have loved that. But what if they decided they absolutely had to change the name of the ENT lead character to Marcus Flint instead?

They did change his name, he was originally Jackson Archer, IIRC. Don't know when the name change took place, however.

 

[Kor]

In retrospect, all the references to Archer would have fallen flat because Archer turned out to be a bumbling captain.

As for the change from "Jackson Archer" to "Jonathan Archer," they determined that there was only one living person named "Jackson Archer," and they wanted to avoid any potential legal issues.

Kor

 

[JirinPanthosa]

That would have been nice as continuity porn.

Or if they did something in a time travel episode with Archer just standing around in the background, then in Enterprise had a scene with the Voyager crew running through the background.

I'm surprised there's only one Jackson Archer in the world, aren't those both common names? I can barely get a gym membership without them having to ask me which me I am every visit.

 

[Tim Thomason]

That would have been nice as continuity porn.

Or if they did something in a time travel episode with Archer just standing around in the background, then in Enterprise had a scene with the Voyager crew running through the background.

I'm surprised there's only one Jackson Archer in the world, aren't those both common names? I can barely get a gym membership without them having to ask me which me I am every visit.

I found eight people on Intelius named Jackson Archer, about 11 on Facebook, seven on Linkedin... these resources weren't available in 2000, but their research still should've been able to turn up more than one Jackson Archer (and they are common names, so I don't see the issue even if they could only find one Archer). The Cinefantastique story on Archer must've been apocryphal and there is more to it than we know.

But, regardless, there was a pretty drastic name change. So, if Voyager had a scene where one character talks about "the Jack Archer protocol" or "Jackson Archer once said three things are certain: death, taxes, and temporal paradoxes" and then they changed it to Jonathan, we'd all be like "WTF is Jackson?" and the novels will have convoluted backgrounds confirming that Jackson Archer is the name of both Jonathan Archer's famous grandfather (a contemporary of Zefram Cochrane and the progenitor of the Star Fleet) and his even more famous grandson (the greatest Captain of the 2210s era).

 

[F. King Daniel]

They planned to introduce the Suliban in Voyager's last season, as nomads roaming the Delta Quadrant after the Borg destroy their homeworld in the 23rd century. For whatever reason, it never happened.

Swapping Kirk's name for Archer would have made zero difference.

 

[Timo]

It sort of changed history, though. The Trek version of it, that is.

In TNG, people serving on a ship named Enterprise display basically no recognition of the name Kirk or knowledge of his adventures, in the one and only episode out of 178 where the name does get dropped. In DS9, there's an adventure that actually takes the heroes to Kirk, and again it's the only one where the character gets mentioned; these heroes recognize the ship at sight, but then dive shoulders deep into records, muddling the issue of how much they know. And it turns out Sisko has a personal fascination, not just with Kirk, but with figures of the past and their autographs in general... Plus Dax is old. So there's bias there.

So it's basically left to VOY to suggest that Kirk is actually remembered, that is, that his fame so outshines that of others that a century later, he's quoted significantly more often than the competition.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[darrenjl]

The chief engineer Torres couldn't even remember the name of the first human warp powered ship, so I don't see 21st and 22nd century history every day knowledge in the 24th century.

 

[Nyotarules]

It’s a shame there’s no trek version of Lewis and Clark...

One planets explorer is another planets potential invader

The chief engineer Torres couldn't even remember the name of the first human warp powered ship, so I don't see 21st and 22nd century history every day knowledge in the 24th century.

Torres was not born, raised or even educated on Earth or anywhere in the Sol system so there is no reason for her to know.


I prefer there were no Kirk references on DS9 or VOY at all, there was no suggestion in the TOS era or movies that Kirk was unique compared to other exploring starship captains. Kirk and his ship was just the only one focused on in a weekly show.
The references on VOY was just TOS fan porn.

 

[Lynx]

Honestly, Kirk is the Star Trek icon.

Archer is just something Berman and Braga came up with when they were trying to "do TOS the way it should have been done".

No reason to remember Archer and definitely no reason to namedrop Archer at all.

Just something from an alternate universe.

 

[Timo]

I prefer there were no Kirk references on DS9 or VOY at all, there was no suggestion in the TOS era or movies that Kirk was unique compared to other exploring starship captains. Kirk and his ship was just the only one focused on in a weekly show.

Kirk really became public after the TOS adventures anyway - the show could never afford to visit Earth, while the movies, with all their location shots and their expensive new VFX, placed Kirk and Earth in close contact and thus let the public see where their taxes went and how a single man channeled them into the salvation of all mankind.

We now have a bit of balance, as it seems Pike is also a really big name for his day, literally listed alongside the Great Archer, even if all but forgotten by the 24th century. Starfleet clearly can accommodate superstars, and possibly promotes such for every decade. And then possibly brings a superstar back after a century, so that the 2370s were a Kirk revival, and we just missed the 2350s Pike revival. (And failed to recognize the 2360s revival of whomever.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tim Thomason]

It sort of changed history, though. The Trek version of it, that is.

In TNG, people serving on a ship named Enterprise display basically no recognition of the name Kirk or knowledge of his adventures, in the one and only episode out of 178 where the name does get dropped. In DS9, there's an adventure that actually takes the heroes to Kirk, and again it's the only one where the character gets mentioned; these heroes recognize the ship at sight, but then dive shoulders deep into records, muddling the issue of how much they know. And it turns out Sisko has a personal fascination, not just with Kirk, but with figures of the past and their autographs in general... Plus Dax is old. So there's bias there.

So it's basically left to VOY to suggest that Kirk is actually remembered, that is, that his fame so outshines that of others that a century later, he's quoted significantly more often than the competition.

Timo Saloniemi

But Generations sort of puts a kibosh on the "Kirk was just another random captain" theory. In Generations, Riker knows off-hand about Kirk's death on the Enterprise-B, and states this to Crusher as if she would know. Later, Picard seems to recognize Kirk at sight. In The Naked Now, he displayed no recognition of the name Kirk, and Riker was the one who vaguely remembered something happening on an old Enterprise where everyone seemed drunk, because he had been recently reading a history on all past Enterprises (probably brushing up on Archer as well, I imagine).

Then again, seven years is a long time, so maybe Picard got a good feel for Kirk's appearance and behavior when he melded with Sarek that one time (and Spock a while later), and Riker was brand new in The Naked Now, but perhaps he was just beginning to study the complete history of the Enterprises (and had done the same for the Potemkins and Pegasi) so that he knew them like the back of his hand seven years later, and foolishly expected others to as well.

Perhaps it was even the return of Kirk's Chief Engineer from the dead in 2369 - a relative caveman in the modern day - which prompted this Kirk renaissance. The press would probably be all over Captain Scott, brain addled or not, and his recollections and life story might make for interesting news. Voyager launched less than two years after he returned to the scene, but that might be enough time for the Legend of James T. Kirk to become a thing.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'm guessing people who think they do too much namedropping already have never seen Lower Decks

 

[Timo]

But Generations sort of puts a kibosh on the "Kirk was just another random captain" theory.

...Or then not: as you say, our TNG heroes would have had time to study up on him, and they are a bunch of heroes exceptionally motivated to do so, due to being Enterprise crew themselves, plus having the Spock connection. The good folks of the Venture might similarly speak of Captain D'Oublier's galaxy-saving endeavors with familiarity and authority.

I guess my original point here is still undermined by the fact that GEN precedes the VOY name-drops in real-world chronological order, by a couple of years.

Perhaps it was even the return of Kirk's Chief Engineer from the dead in 2369 - a relative caveman in the modern day - which prompted this Kirk renaissance. The press would probably be all over Captain Scott, brain addled or not, and his recollections and life story might make for interesting news. Voyager launched less than two years after he returned to the scene, but that might be enough time for the Legend of James T. Kirk to become a thing.

Him being a thing in VOY may be a tad overblown. Spock's diplomatic efforts are the first TOS-related thing to pop up, in "Alliances"; perhaps Kirk to Janeway is the guy who was hanging around Great Spock? Then again, her trusted Security chief was a guy who was hanging around Great Spock! Or at least serving in close context. Tuvok is the one to later quote Spock in "Endgame".

Yet what do we actually have on Kirk there? The whole "Flashback" story, which Tuvok might well have shared with her captain previously. But apparently he didn't: Janeway acts as if she has no idea that an Excelsior adventure might have featured fighting with the Klingons, or involved Kirk in any manner. And then she proceeds to compare Kirk to his portrait at the SF HQ wall, as if that were her closest tie to the character.

Besides "Flashback", and the above two stories mentioning Spock, there's just "Q2", where Icheb's tirade on Kirk doesn't exactly send Janeway down the memory lane.The report might just as well have been about the great contribution of lice to exploration: factually correct, but perhaps not worthy of umpteen chapters, and somewhere fairly low down in relative importance, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

I'm guessing people who think they do too much namedropping already have never seen Lower Decks

Heh... I wonder if McMahan actually has something planned to connect Mariner to Kirk somehow. Besides her no doubt diligently studying up on famous renegades, that is.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[dupersuper]

But Generations sort of puts a kibosh on the "Kirk was just another random captain" theory. In Generations, Riker knows off-hand about Kirk's death on the Enterprise-B, and states this to Crusher as if she would know. Later, Picard seems to recognize Kirk at sight. In The Naked Now, he displayed no recognition of the name Kirk, and Riker was the one who vaguely remembered something happening on an old Enterprise where everyone seemed drunk, because he had been recently reading a history on all past Enterprises (probably brushing up on Archer as well, I imagine).

Then again, seven years is a long time, so maybe Picard got a good feel for Kirk's appearance and behavior when he melded with Sarek that one time (and Spock a while later), and Riker was brand new in The Naked Now, but perhaps he was just beginning to study the complete history of the Enterprises (and had done the same for the Potemkins and Pegasi) so that he knew them like the back of his hand seven years later, and foolishly expected others to as well.

Perhaps it was even the return of Kirk's Chief Engineer from the dead in 2369 - a relative caveman in the modern day - which prompted this Kirk renaissance. The press would probably be all over Captain Scott, brain addled or not, and his recollections and life story might make for interesting news. Voyager launched less than two years after he returned to the scene, but that might be enough time for the Legend of James T. Kirk to become a thing.

Also, there's a big difference between knowing what a famous figure like Kirk looked like and how he supposedly died, and knowing the details of one of his hundreds (thousands?) of missions.

 

[Timo]

Did Riker know how Kirk died? Or is the scene where Crusher quotes facts she has dug up about Soran merely one where Riker, too, has dug up facts about Soran (and, incidentally, Kirk)?

Granted, it's a Sickbay scene, not a Briefing Room scene, but it's a briefing anyway, and if anything, Crusher would have had less time to look up things than Riker or Worf who would have been her patients after the Amargosa altercation.

If Riker hasn't looked up Kirk here specifically, this is our one case of a TNG hero being aware of Kirk Things, without the need for specific prompting and investigating. But it would be odd for Riker to lag behind Crusher in this intel work here, when he's the XO and she's the CMO...

Timo Saloniemi