What Has Discovery Added To Star Trek Lore?

[Midquest]

Yeah, willy-nilly changing of information over at Memory Alpha, can very often bring the Wrath of the Trek Info-Brokers down upon ones head.
Everything done over there is recorded and then checked by much more studious Trek Fans than I.
And they aren't as nice as I am.

Good to know! As a big Memory Alpha fan, I'm glad to hear this.

 

[fireproof78]

That appears to be why people are so insistent here the holodeck shown in TAS was not an hallucination even though no one has proven it wasn't. But the burden of proof is technically on the people arguing they were on holodeck in that scene. Even though no mention of it is seen anywhere else.

You are conflating terms here, which is not helpful to meaningful discussion. I have not called it a "holodeck" and that is a seperate technology, as you well established. The point isn't the holodeck itself, but holograms, and those have been presented in some form on TOS, and in TAS, and yes that is precedent, whether it is canonical or not, it is apart of the Trek world.

As I cited, we can have authorial intent to go off of, as well as contemporary interpretation of the work. If that is not sufficient "proof" then nothing will work in this matter and we are at an impasse. Though, I suspect this impasse has been long coming.

 

[marsh8472]

Er, yes. I saw that. And like I said in my post, there's not a single line or moment in the episode that supports a single person's hallucination, is there? If so, can you share it?

I'm not making a claim. I just don't accept the conclusion that it was a holodeck because of the gas being there, other unknown alien influences involved, lack of holodecks being mentioned in the series, implicitly saying holodecks are new in the 24th century and them explicitly stating that holodecks did not exist in the 23rd century.

To the contrary, the burden of proof is on anyone who wants to argue for events or conditions beyond those displayed or referenced in the story. One group of people is saying, "What happened on screen is what happened." Note that the rec room is treated as much as a real place as the bridge or mess hall within the story, for instance. But I think you're arguing that something else, unseen and unacknowledged in dialogue--in an animated show that went out of its way to make everything blatantly clear--was happening. The burden of proof ought to fall on the latter, not the former, right?

Would you trying to state as fact what's an hallucination and what's not an hallucination not be arguing for events or conditions beyond the story is being displayed? They said in the story that the lifeform was messing with the environmental system and pumping hallucinogens into the air. I'm not the one ignoring that fact.

 

[DaveyNY]

You are conflating terms here, which is not helpful to meaningful discussion. I have not called it a "holodeck" and that is a seperate technology, as you well established. The point isn't the holodeck itself, but holograms, and those have been presented in some form on TOS, and in TAS, and yes that is precedent, whether it is canonical or not, it is apart of the Trek world.

As I cited, we can have authorial intent to go off of, as well as contemporary interpretation of the work. If that is not sufficient "proof" then nothing will work in this matter and we are at an impasse. Though, I suspect this impasse has been long coming.

Heh...
It was pretty obvious to me with that person's first post, that we were heading deeply into morass territory.
The thing is though, the only way to keep the hole from getting deeper, is to take away the energy to be able to shovel.
And the only way to do that to stop tossing food in the hole.

 

[marsh8472]

Yeah, willy-nilly changing of information over at Memory Alpha, can very often bring the Wrath of the Trek Info-Brokers down upon ones head.
Everything done over there is recorded and then checked by much more studious Trek Fans than I.
And they aren't as nice as I am.

Good to know! As a big Memory Alpha fan, I'm glad to hear this.

Wiki's are unreliable when it comes to something like this. https://teachinghistory.org/digital-classroom/ask-a-digital-historian/23863

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

Heh...
It was pretty obvious to me with that person's first post, that we were heading deeply into morass territory.
The thing is though, the only way to keep the hole from getting deeper, is to take away the energy to be able to shovel.
And the only way to do that to stop tossing food in the hole.

'No! Dig UP, stupid!'

- Chief Wiggum

 

[DigificWriter]

I'm not sure why there's currently any debate about the canonicity of The Animated Series. The official Star Trek website has declared and recognized it as part of the Canon, so therefore it is.

 

[DaveyNY]

Wiki's are unreliable when it comes to something like this. https://teachinghistory.org/digital-classroom/ask-a-digital-historian/23863

Yet, you specifically went to the Star Trek Wiki and changed the info, then copied it over to here to try and prove your conclusion.

 

[DaveyNY]

I'm not sure why there's currently any debate about the canonicity of The Animated Series. The official Star Trek website has declared and recognized it as part of the Canon, so therefore it is.

... and has been since June of 2007.

 

[fireproof78]

Yet, you specifically went to the Star Trek one and changed the info, then copied it over to here to try and prove your conclusion.

 

[DaveyNY]

Marshnumber seems quite a bit more desperate than HAL at this point though.

 

[Midquest]

Would you trying to state as fact what's an hallucination and what's not an hallucination not be arguing for events or conditions beyond the story is being displayed? They said in the story that the lifeform was messing with the environmental system and pumping hallucinogens into the air. I'm not the one ignoring that fact.

Well, this post ignores a few points I and others made, such as:

- Nitrous oxide doesn't work that way.
- The episode would have to include a hallucination that is never, ever identified as such and has no discernible end-point (in a show that was fairly heavy-handed about telling the audience what to think and what was happening).
- McCoy would have had to not only hallucinate the settings of the holodeck but the technology that made it work, such as the "audio tapes rewinding."
- In fact, the computer would have to be confused, as it explicitly says that the "joke" in one scene is falling into a pit, not a hallucination. How would the computer know what they're hallucinating?

I just don't think it's a likely scenario, especially as hallucinations aren't even mentioned at any point in the episode--everything that happens is described as a technical malfunction. Therefore, surely the simplest explanation is that the malfunctions are technical. Anything else would be in realm of speculation, I think.

EDIT to add: For the record, "hallucinogens" are also not mentioned in the episode. After the gas makes everybody giggle, Kirk says, "Captain's log, supplemental. Somehow Spock managed to switch on our emergency air before collapsing from the effects of the gas. The fresh air quickly revived us, although it'll be exhausted in another six hours." And then we see the rec room holodeck still running. So...

But you do you. Enjoy.

 

[DaveyNY]

Well, this post ignores a few points I and others made, such as:

- Nitrous oxide doesn't work that way.
- The episode would have to include a hallucination that is never, ever identified as such and has no discernible end-point (in a show that was fairly heavy-handed about telling the audience what to think and what was happening).
- McCoy would have had to not only hallucinate the settings of the holodeck but the technology that made it work, such as the "audio tapes rewinding."
- In fact, the computer would have to be confused, as it explicitly says that the "joke" in one scene is falling into a pit, not a hallucination. How would the computer know what they're hallucinating?

I just don't think it's just not a likely scenario, especially as hallucinations aren't even mentioned at any point in the episode--everything that happens is described as a technical malfunction. Therefore, surely the simplest explanation is that the malfunctions are technical. Anything else would be in realm of speculation, I think.

Speculation???
Try Intentional Misrepresentation..., it's what folks like this do practically for a living.

 

[marsh8472]

You are conflating terms here, which is not helpful to meaningful discussion. I have not called it a "holodeck" and that is a seperate technology, as you well established. The point isn't the holodeck itself, but holograms, and those have been presented in some form on TOS, and in TAS, and yes that is precedent, whether it is canonical or not, it is apart of the Trek world.

As I cited, we can have authorial intent to go off of, as well as contemporary interpretation of the work. If that is not sufficient "proof" then nothing will work in this matter and we are at an impasse. Though, I suspect this impasse has been long coming.

Correct that is not sufficient proof. They wouldn't have made a big deal about the same effect in TNG "Relics" if they could already do just about the same thing on the enterprise a century earlier already.

I'm not sure why there's currently any debate about the canonicity of The Animated Series. The official Star Trek website has declared and recognized it as part of the Canon, so therefore it is.

It's not something that needs to be debated. Other people are the ones that are using Gene Roddenberry's words to dictate what canon is when he says the rec room was intended to be a holodeck. But when Gene Roddenberry says something they don't like then it doesn't count. Though I don't consider them throwing the word "canon" next to the name of their database a very convincing proof that it actually is either. I've found plenty of errors in that database before. At best it's a reference to canon like the star trek encyclopedia and memory alpha are.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ You keep digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole, just like some other people here, both with what you say and what you did to Memory Alpha.

Face the facts, jack: The Animated Series is Canon, and the Enterprise and other Constitution-class ships had holographic technology and holodeck-like simulation rooms, and no amount of you attempting to pretend otherwise - or vandalizing Memory Alpha to "prove your point" - is going to change that.

 

[DaveyNY]

Correct that is not sufficient proof. They wouldn't have made a big deal about the same effect in TNG "Relics" if they could already do just about the same thing on the enterprise a century earlier already.



It's not something that needs to be debated. Other people are the ones that are using Gene Roddenberry's words to dictate what canon is when he says the rec room was intended to be a holodeck. But when Gene Roddenberry says something they don't like then it doesn't count. Though I don't consider them throwing the word "canon" next to the name of their database a very convincing proof that it actually is either. I've found plenty of errors in that database before. At best it's a reference to canon like the star trek encyclopedia and memory alpha are.

But... Mr. Roddenberry Didn't Ever Say that Holodecks OR Recreation Rooms Weren't Canon.
(since BOTH appeared in episodes he wrote for TOS & TNG)
And since he specifically IS quoted as saying that he wanted something akin to a Holodeck in Season 3 of TOS but the production couldn't afford it, you've got no where to go with that twisted trail of misguided logic.

 

[marsh8472]

Well, this post ignores a few points I and others made, such as:

- Nitrous oxide doesn't work that way.
- The episode would have to include a hallucination that is never, ever identified as such and has no discernible end-point (in a show that was fairly heavy-handed about telling the audience what to think and what was happening).
- McCoy would have had to not only hallucinate the settings of the holodeck but the technology that made it work, such as the "audio tapes rewinding."
- In fact, the computer would have to be confused, as it explicitly says that the "joke" in one scene is falling into a pit, not a hallucination. How would the computer know what they're hallucinating?

I just don't think it's a likely scenario, especially as hallucinations aren't even mentioned at any point in the episode--everything that happens is described as a technical malfunction. Therefore, surely the simplest explanation is that the malfunctions are technical. Anything else would be in realm of speculation, I think.

EDIT to add: For the record, "hallucinogens" are also not mentioned in the episode. After the gas makes everybody giggle, Kirk says, "Captain's log, supplemental. Somehow Spock managed to switch on our emergency air before collapsing from the effects of the gas. The fresh air quickly revived us, although it'll be exhausted in another six hours." And then we see the rec room holodeck still running. So...

But you do you. Enjoy.

"Nitrous oxide" - people state the hallucinations cannot work that way but did not cite any evidence about what can and cannot be an acceptable visual hallucination from nitrous oxide.

Author's intent and canonial interpretation do not have to agree.

The brain makes stuff up pretty quickly when encountering something unusual during hallucinations and without full command of their faculties they wouldn't have to question it. You're assuming the rec-room holodeck thing uses audio tapes to create the sounds but we don't know that.

When the computer said "Fell for my joke.", that too could have been an hallucination or just a figure of speech that happens to have a literal interpretation.

It could theoretically be a shared hallucination because of the unknown properties of the alien that invaded the ship can allow for the possibility just like it allowed for the possibility in the episodes I cited. We are not given much information about the alien except that it gave the computer an intelligence, had emotions but that's about it. We're not told where the alien came from or anything about what it can or cannot do. The alien may be capable of inducing an hullicanation without needing hallucinogens like VOY "Memorial".

 

[Midquest]

You're assuming the rec-room holodeck thing uses audio tapes to create the sounds but we don't know that.

Oh my, no. McCoy assumes that the rec room uses audio tapes to create sounds:

UHURA: What was that?
SULU: I'm not sure. It almost sounded like someone chuckling.
MCCOY: It was probably just one of the audio tapes rewinding. Come on, there's lots more to see.

I reiterate: the episode does not--at any point--mention hallucinations. Not once. Yet you've edited a Memory Alpha page to suggest that it does. We live in post-truth times, I guess.

 

[fireproof78]

Correct that is not sufficient proof. They wouldn't have made a big deal about the same effect in TNG "Relics" if they could already do just about the same thing on the enterprise a century earlier already.

Well, as you established earlier, we can't know what the characters are seeing. Relics could be Scotty's transporter induced psychotic break.

 

[marsh8472]

Oh my, no. McCoy assumes that the rec room uses audio tapes to create sounds:

Which you cite as a case that it's not an hallucination because he knows how it works. But we don't know if he knows how it works.

I reiterate: the episode does not--at any point--mention hallucinations. Not once. Yet you've edited a Memory Alpha page to suggest that it does. We live in post-truth times, I guess.

But they do mention the gas which is known to cause hallucinations and side-effects which we do see in the episode. A lack of them saying "hallucination" or whatever it is does not prove that "hallucination" or whatever it is does not exist.