I missed this.
It's interesting to realize that the Founders possessed ability to cure themselves of the disease all along, without being aware of it.
They did. All they needed is to get to section 31.
What happened to Laas?
- Thread starter Kobayshi Maru
- Start date
They did. All they needed is to get to section 31.
Yeah, I just watched the episode and it did seem like Sloan never intended Odo to become symptomatic. It might have something to do with becoming human or the other changeling. But also, they might have just done something that they hoped would make Odo immune, but were willing to take the risk of killing him by mistake.
Or they just made it slower in Odo and hoped that the Founders would die before it became symptomatic with plans to secretly cure him.
Or they just made it slower in Odo and hoped that the Founders would die before it became symptomatic with plans to secretly cure him.
Fixed for what I think they intended. Sloan might not have intended for it to become symptomatic in Odo. He might have even liked Odo a little on a personal level. But based on the way he operated, whom he LIKED wasn't really relevant, and I just seriously doubt he gave a significant crap one way or another what happened to Odo so long as the aims of Section 31 were fulfilled.
I agree Sloan didn't really care if Odo died but it seemed he would have preferred if he didn't.
But "we" weren't. It was the explicit policy of the Allies to kill civilians because those were part of the Axis war effort.
What was different about WWII was that when the Allies gained direct access to German children, it was over already. At the conclusion of the Dominion campaign in the Alpha Quadrant, the enemy in the Delta Quadrant is still in full fighting strength and shows no signs of remorse. Their one reason for not keeping up the fighting (Odo coming back) is alien to the Alpha winners, something they cannot really comprehend or rely upon. Killing all the Founders (and that really means all of them, especially the children who would otherwise grow up angry, extremely armed and dangerous) would seem the "humane" solution, no different from how the Feds can steel themselves to slaughtering Borg and arguing they aren't really worthy of mercy or even capable of receiving it.
It's a wonderful piece of trust and xenophilia, fitting of Star Trek, that the Feds do choose to put their faith in the Odo solution. One just wonders how long that is going to last.
For Sloan to be consistent, I'd think he would be very interested in seeing Odo die, too - only not too soon lest he ruin the plan. Leaving a Founder alive, even a domesticated one, would be too much of a risk, as Odo might develop ideas, go to Gamma, and summon a trillion fighting men and a hundred thousand ships merely by doing the Neck Trick in front of them.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo, why would a few hundred more years of evolutionary immunology not provide knowledge that would allow someone to engineer a disease that whose virulence and infectiousness changes over time? Those qualities are already manifest in nature--it's just a question of whether humans could make use of them.
I don't think they ever explained what the neck trick was. It's wide open for speculation.
Odo had proven his loyalty though. If they didn't trust him not to lead an Empire against them they wouldn't have allowed him to serve on DS9. If anything people at Starfleet may have been hoping Odo would lead the Dominion but reform it and maybe even make them allies.
DS9 shows us 24th century humans aren't as perfect as they are portrayed in TNG, but it also shows us that nothing makes them feel better about themselves than turning a former enemy into an ally.
DS9 shows us 24th century humans aren't as perfect as they are portrayed in TNG, but it also shows us that nothing makes them feel better about themselves than turning a former enemy into an ally.
Except when Sisko described Dukat as being "truly evil" there was nothing much to do to turn him into an ally after that...
But they did have designs on bringing Cardassia into the Federation.
Also you have to think about what would have happened in the GQ if the Founders had died. Either the Gem'Hadar would have all killed themselves like they did in The Ship, or they would have unleashed a violent massacre on every planet in the quadrant. The people in Starfleet probably took that into account and were hoping Odo could prevent it to keep that blood off their hands.
Also you have to think about what would have happened in the GQ if the Founders had died. Either the Gem'Hadar would have all killed themselves like they did in The Ship, or they would have unleashed a violent massacre on every planet in the quadrant. The people in Starfleet probably took that into account and were hoping Odo could prevent it to keep that blood off their hands.
I guess this comes down to the definition of "them". The people who knew Odo was instrumental to victory would not want to see him removed from the position in which he could interact with the other Changelings. The people who didn't might want to see Odo jailed or killed, but they would be overruled both by the decent fellows and those who wanted Odo to spread death and destruction.
...And the Jem'Hadar somehow found out. Which they might not, considering how secretive the Founders were.
It might be in the Vorta interest not to let the Jem'Hadar go berserk. One way or another, they would arrange it so that the Jem'Hadar either quietly died away or then became loyal to the Vorta instead. Or probably both, as a much smaller number of Jem'Hadar would still allow the Vorta to run a nice empire for themselves.
Timo Saloniemi
Knowing the founders and their general disregard for the lives of those who serve them ( e.g. "kill them and activate their clones, maybe a new perspective will help speed up the research" the quote is not exact but it gives an idea) I doubt the founders had conceived the Vorta to be able to function very long without them. I bet not long after the founders went extinct the vorta and the jemadhar (sorry for the bad spelling) would follow them... They made these creature dependent for a reason. I bet you can't breed Jemmadhars without some activation somewhere done specifically by a founder, same thing with a vorta. Remember how fliippant the female founder was about killing Weyoun who was one of her most loyal servants. Of course she didn' give a damn about anybody's else live either be it the cardassians, the breen or anybody else other than her own kind.
All in all, a detestable sort, I am siding with Sloan on that one!
Sounds like a good bet. It wasn't stated out loud in the episodes, but still.
Then again, the Vorta do act in traitorous self-interest more often than they do not. "To the Death", "Rocks and Shoals" and "The Magnificient Ferengi" were adventures where no suggestion was made that the Vorta in question would have been defective, despite almost unhesitatingly engaging in treason. The Vorta were generally kept at bay by getting killed by their own Jem'Hadar, but that doesn't sound like a good thing - essentially, the Jem'Hadar were making decisions about what was correct Dominion policy and what was not, which is the very last thing the Founders would want!
Timo Saloniemi
I beg to differ. In "To the death" there is no indication that the Vorta was defective, in fact he may have done exactly what the founders were expecting of him. He just happened to say the wrong words to the wrong Jemadar that killed him in irritation.
In "Rocks and Shoals" and "The Magnificient Ferengi", it is the same vorta and as said in the latter episode, he was defective for not activating his suicidal built in device. Remember later with the defective Weyoun? The next Weyoun told him to be a good Vorta and kill himself. That was expected of him!!!
Which they never did, but what I meant was by turning themselves into solids and then back into their original form they would have cured themselves of the disease.
As long as they didn't link with anyone still infected, they would have solved that problem.
They just didn't realize they had this ability.
...Of course, if the disease got the majority of them simultaneously (that is, if the majority of them were mulling about in the Link when Odo dipped into it in "Broken Link"), they would already have lost the ability to cure themselves by the time the need became obvious.
Granted, and I withdraw that argument. It's just a bit worrying that there are so many defects in the ranks of the Vorta sent against the Alpha Quadrant already. How many back home?
Timo Saloniemi
Granted, and I withdraw that argument. It's just a bit worrying that there are so many defects in the ranks of the Vorta sent against the Alpha Quadrant already. How many back home?
Timo Saloniemi
Vorta were meant to have a little more free will than Gem'hadar, probably because the Founders thought it was necessary for the diplomat/decision maker roles they took.
If they fail to activate their implant it falls more in the category of mutiny. Weyoun 6 was considered defective because he exercised moral reasoning, and the vorta aren't supposed to apply any further moral reasoning than 'The Founders will is gospel'.
If they fail to activate their implant it falls more in the category of mutiny. Weyoun 6 was considered defective because he exercised moral reasoning, and the vorta aren't supposed to apply any further moral reasoning than 'The Founders will is gospel'.
The Vortas are the brains of the Dominion; Remember that they are the ones doing research to find a cure for the disease, but they also are the generals that think of strategies, and also the administrators that take care of the production and distribution of the white... etc...
In fact without the Vorta the founders would likely be lost. They would regress a few millenia and no longer be able to maintain their vast empire.
IOW, the founders wouldn't dare modifying the Vorta too much, especially by restraining their abilities, lest they wouldn't be able to perform their tasks.
