What happened to Deep Spaces 1-8?

[Nyotarules]

Well, it was cut to seem that way, but there were hints that more time had passed -- McCoy had changed uniforms and Kirk had slept off his sedative. Although there's a similarly quick trip from the Klingon border to Earth in STID, and that's cut in a way that makes it much harder to fit in any extra time.

Not much time, the battle of Nero took place the same day the fleet left Earth. Vulcan is meant to be 14 to 16 ly from Earth. If it took a few days to get there then why would Nero hang around after he destroyed Vulcan's fleet? The movie had Nero destroy Vulcan defence, destroy the Starfleet ships and destroy a planet in one day. No one from Vulcan Space Central told Starfleet they were under attack from a ship in the sky, you mean no one on the whole planet saw that drill? Amanda saw it from her balcony. The more I think of the details of the movie the more holes I uncover. I really enjoyed seeing ST09 on the screen and the good bits outweigh the plot holes. But some of those holes are huge IMO.

 

[UssGlenn]

What Picard said in First Contact was that the Federation has over 150 members "spread across 8000 light years" -- which doesn't really make any sense, because he's using a linear measure to refer to a three-dimensional volume. Does he mean a sphere 8000 ly in diameter? Does he mean 8000 cubic light years, which would mean a sphere less than 25 ly in diameter? The latter is clearly nonsensical. But the former is highly unlikely too, because "Encounter at Farpoint" said that Deneb was at the most distant edge of Starfleet exploration and it's only 2600 ly away, give or take a couple hundred. And of course Starfleet exploration must extend far beyond the actual political borders of the Federation -- that's implicit in the whole "explore strange new worlds" thing.

Deneb doesn't have to hold the record for furthest out, just furthest out in that direction. Head out another way and 2600 LY could still be in Federation space. There could be a Federation world 4000 light years from Earth in one direction and another 4000 away in the opposite direction, making the Federations maximum dimension 8000 light years.

 

[Christopher]

Deneb doesn't have to hold the record for furthest out, just furthest out in that direction. Head out another way and 2600 LY could still be in Federation space. There could be a Federation world 4000 light years from Earth in one direction and another 4000 away in the opposite direction, making the Federations maximum dimension 8000 light years.

You can come up with a number of speculations about what it could mean, but my point is that it's such a vague and illogical line that it can't be taken as authoritative proof of a damn thing when it comes to the Federation's size.

Generally, TOS seemed to suggest that the radius of the Federation was less than a thousand light years. Miri's duplicate Earth was "hundreds of light years from Earth" with "no colonies or vessels out this far." Gothos's star desert was 900 ly from Earth and en route to an Earth colony. Gary Seven's home planet was at least 1000 ly away and it was beyond known space. The Undiscovered Country had Kirk claim they were "a thousand light years" from Federation Headquarters while on the Klingon border, although that could've been figurative. In TNG, Q flung the Enterprise 7000 ly to encounter the Borg, and that put them more than two and a half years from the nearest starbase. Malcor III in the episode "First Contact" was over 2000 ly from Earth and was presumably in unclaimed space.

Now, in DS9, we started to get references suggesting a smaller Federation, and not just because of travel times. "Fascination" claimed that Bajor was 300 ly from Regulus, which would put Bajor an absolute maximum of 380 ly from Earth if it were on the exact same bearing as Regulus. "Trials and Tribble-ations" asserted that Deep Space Station K-7, along the Klingon border, was over 200 ly from a point midway between Cardassia and Bajor -- which would seem to put the Klingon border much closer to Earth than the 1000 ly Kirk claimed in TUC.

So while the evidence we have is certainly inconsistent, almost all of it suggests that the Federation's borders in both the 23rd and 24th centuries are on the order of several hundred to a thousand ly from Earth. Picard's FC line is the only exception I can find. It's the outlier among the available references, and since it clearly doesn't fit the rest, it can't be considered definitive. Especially since it isn't even clear what it means.

The one way I can see to reconcile Picard's line is if he meant the Federation is 8000 ly in circumference along the galactic plane. That would correspond to a radius of about 1270 ly if we assume a circle. Of course, it isn't a circle, and we know the Cardassian border is much less than that distance from Earth, but at least it puts us in the same ballpark as the other evidence. Although it would be a very odd choice of words.

Heck, maybe Picard meant to say the UFP was eight hundred to a thousand light years across, but he misspoke. He was under a lot of stress, after all.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Picard's FC line is the only exception I can find. It's the outlier among the available references, and since it clearly doesn't fit the rest, it can't be considered definitive. Especially since it isn't even clear what it means.

While I suspect these won't be popular explanations, it is possible that (1) Picard is using a reductive two-dimensional model, not unlike what we use to locate points on the Earth's surface, and that the 8000 ly is an area, or (2) the UFP is highly discontiguous.

 

[Christopher]

While I suspect these won't be popular explanations, it is possible that (1) Picard is using a reductive two-dimensional model, not unlike what we use to locate points on the Earth's surface, and that the 8000 ly is an area, or (2) the UFP is highly discontiguous.

Yeah, I can't say I'm fond of that. Too much film/TV sci-fi treats space as flat already. (And of course, if it were an area, it'd have to be 8000 ly^2.)

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Yeah, I can't say I'm fond of that. Too much film/TV sci-fi treats space as flat already. (And of course, if it were an area, it'd have to be 8000 ly^2.)

It does, but admittedly 2D models still have uses is 3D environments, and Star Trek uses them regardless.

 

[Christopher]

Well, anyway, it's a fictional universe created by lots of different people, so there are always going to be isolated lines that are just weird. Better to try to get a sense of what the overall whole of the franchise suggests than to fixate on dissecting a single vague line. Any data set is going to have outliers and error bars; what you want to do is try to tease a consistent underlying pattern out of the noise. And the overall pattern suggested by most canonical evidence is a Federation whose borders are in the range of a few hundred to a thousand-plus light years from Earth.

 

[Six of Twelve]

That the Drone Formerly Known As Annika Hansen would keep on calling herself Seven of Nine beyond the factual passing of the Nine is then more a sign of teen rebellion than of adherence to Collective rules...

Timo Saloniemi

One of the most basic assertions of individuality is to self-determine what others will call you. By keeping her designation, Seven of Nine asserted her individuality for the first time, instead of allowing the stranger, Janeeay, to tell her what she "should" be called.

 

[Christopher]

One of the most basic assertions of individuality is to self-determine what others will call you. By keeping her designation, Seven of Nine asserted her individuality for the first time, instead of allowing the stranger, Janeeay, to tell her what she "should" be called.

That's the irony of it -- that clinging to her Borg-ness was an act of individuality.

 

[Emperor Norton]

Deep Space Nine is the last of the Babylon stati...wait, wrong show.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Deep Space Nine is the last of the Babylon stati...wait, wrong show.

"It was the dawn of the third age of mankind, four years before the Dominion War. The Deep Space Project was a dream given form. Its goal: to prevent another war by creating a place where humans and aliens could work out their differences peacefully. It's a port of call, home away from home for diplomats, hustlers, entrepreneurs, and wanderers. Humans and aliens wrapped in million tons of spinning metal, all alone in the night. It can be a dangerous place, but it's our last best hope for peace. This is the story of the last of the Deep Space stations. The year is 2369. The name of the place is Deep Space 9".

 

[Nyotarules]

If Deep Spaces 1 - 8 were unionised under British management, they went on an indefinite strike.