What don't you like about Christmas?

[Roger Wilco]

I often hear people say "Frohe Feiertage" instead of "Frohe Weihnachten", reason being not "political correctness", but that it's actually more accurate in a way considering there's a bunch of holidays around that time and what people are actually celebrating for the most part is having days off work, not Jesus' birth.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

And what about the people who celebrate Kwanzaa? Yule? Non-religious people who nevertheless like to give and receive gifts?

"Happy Holidays" is meant to be inclusive, not insulting.

Sure, in the USA it is a slightly different issue as there are folks from many cultures living there. But if you really wanted to be polite and inclusive you'd actually ask a Black guy whether he celebrates Kwanzaa or Christmas or whatever.
I care about real effects of statistical discrimination like people in wheelchairs having to deal with houses without elevators. Wishing one of the few folks who does not celebrate Christmas but another religious event "Merry Christmas" seem minor compared to such real problems of statistical discrimination.

Being a German citizen I naturally would never ever wish anybody a happy Yule. Chances are high that whoever celebrates it is a fascist.

Wow, talk about a false dichotomy.

Saying "Happy Holidays" costs nothing and hurts no one. Comparing it to other unresolved social ills is silly.

And in a context where you don't know anything about the person you're talking to (like being a cashier), it's better to say something inclusive than something potentially inappropriate/offensive.

I don't see how there is any other way to take "Happy Holidays" than "I may not know what holidays (if any) you celebrate at this time of year, but I hope you enjoy them nonetheless."

The whole reason the phrase came into usage was because there are people who go out of their way to say "Merry Christmas" to people who don't celebrate it--grinding a religious ax at a time of year that's supposed to be about generosity and brotherhood, not pushing a political agenda.

 

[horatio83]

I often hear people say "Frohe Feiertage" instead of "Frohe Weihnachten", reason being not "political correctness", but that it's actually more accurate in a way considering there's a bunch of holidays around that time and what people are actually celebrating for the most part is having days off work, not Jesus' birth.

I am happy that I don't. Despite being a hardcore materialist I am critical of the pseudo-secularization of Christian holidays like Christmas or Easter. All it leads to is more commercialism whereas what people actually value about Christmas are not the presents or the days off but family, less stress, the quiet atmosphere and so on.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

... family, less stress, the quiet atmosphere and so on.

"Family" and the other things you mentioned don't really go together.

 

[Roger Wilco]

what people actually value about Christmas are not the presents or the days off but family, less stress, the quiet atmosphere and so on.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

Also, slightly offtopic, and yes, I know I'm reading to much into it, but I can't help myself: I was watching a NFL game last night on an, ahem, illegal stream, so I was subjected to American commercials. And there was one ad that really pissed me off. Santa Claus doing stuff on his iphone, talking with Siri or whatever that's called, and at the end the punchline was Santa asking his phone "so, what do I have planned today" (or something like that) and the phone answers "you've got 3.7 billion appointments". I understand that's supposed to be funny, but really? 3.7 billion? How about Santa get off his lazy fucking ass around the year delivering rice to some of those 3.7 billion households if he's that good? I bet 80-90% of those 3.7 billion kids (or whatever that number means) would prefer having a day off work in their sweatshop to go to school every now and then instead of Santa bringing fucking Xbox Kinects to some spoiled brats in the "First World" once a year. If I were in charge of Apple I would have made a Centipad out of the dumbass who came up with this shit.

[/rant] sorry

 

[horatio83]

[The whole reason the phrase came into usage was because there are people who go out of their way to say "Merry Christmas" to people who don't celebrate it--grinding a religious ax at a time of year that's supposed to be about generosity and brotherhood, not pushing a political agenda.

Original Christianity, before it allied itself with Roman power and Roman paganism, was about breaking out of family and tribal ties. It was about establishing a community of believers and what they believe in is not some God of the beyond but the Holy Spirit, basically themselves. This Christianity is totally antithetical to exclusiveness as its main idea is total inclusiveness.

This is the Christianity I defend as an atheist. I totally admit total brother- and sisterhood is a political agenda (should we as Trekkers really oppose this very agenda?) but I prefer it to capitalism totally taking over Christmas which is by the way also a political agenda.

In other words, when I, an ex-Christian, say "Merry Christmas" I don't mean it as right-winger "we Christians vs. you Muslims/Jews/atheists" style. I mean it as "we all belong together", Christmas as a signifier for universality. Political correctness, commercial Christmas or a paganification of Christmas can't achieve this.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

Also, slightly offtopic, and yes, I know I'm reading to much into it, but I can't help myself: I was watching a NFL game last night on an, ahem, illegal stream, so I was subjected to American commercials. And there was one ad that really pissed me off. Santa Claus doing stuff on his iphone, talking with Siri or whatever that's called, and at the end the punchline was Santa asking his phone "so, what do I have planned today" (or something like that) and the phone answers "you've got 3.7 billion appointments". I understand that's supposed to be funny, but really? 3.7 billion? How about Santa get off his lazy fucking ass around the year delivering rice to some of those 3.7 billion households if he's that good? I bet 80-90% of those 3.7 billion kids (or whatever that number means) would prefer having a day off work in their sweatshop to go to school every now and then instead of Santa bringing fucking Xbox Kinects to some spoiled brats in the "First World" once a year. If I were in charge of Apple I would have made a Centipad out of the dumbass who came up with this shit.

[/rant] sorry

That's the spirit, comrade.
Seriously, I think this neatly demonstrates that commercial Christmas is something we should fight against.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

[The whole reason the phrase came into usage was because there are people who go out of their way to say "Merry Christmas" to people who don't celebrate it--grinding a religious ax at a time of year that's supposed to be about generosity and brotherhood, not pushing a political agenda.

Original Christianity, before it allied itself with Roman power and Roman paganism, was about breaking out of family and tribal ties. It was about establishing a community of believers and what they believe in is not some God of the beyond but the Holy Spirit, basically themselves. This Christianity is totally antithetical to exclusiveness as its main idea is total inclusiveness.

This is the Christianity I defend as an atheist. I totally admit total brother- and sisterhood is a political agenda (should we as Trekkers really oppose this very agenda?) but I prefer it to capitalism totally taking over Christmas which is by the way also a political agenda.

In other words, when I, an ex-Christian, say "Merry Christmas" I don't mean it as right-winger "we Christians vs. you Muslims/Jews/atheists" style. I mean it as "we all belong together", Christmas as a signifier for universality. Political correctness, commercial Christmas or a paganification of Christmas can't achieve this.

That's an interesting interpretation, and I'm sure some people do mean it that way, but you have to understand it is not always meant that way, and nor is it interpreted that way by non-believers.

Now, I am perfectly willing to take "Merry Christmas" or any other seasonal greeting in stride, particularly if it's somebody I know and I have no reason to question their motives. But the folks who push the notion of a "War on Christmas" encourage Christians to say "Merry Christmas" specifically because it agitates against "political correctness" and pisses off those godless atheists.

As a perfect example of what I'm talking about, a member on this very board has this as their avatar:

Tell me, what the hell is inclusive about that? Bill O'Reilly pointing a gun at you, demanding you say "Christmas." Yeah, no implied coercion or religious oppression there. Even in jest, I don't find it all that amusing. If folks feel like hearing "Happy Holidays" diminishes the meaning of Christmas, well, tough shit. Someone snarling "Merry Christmas" at me because they think they're fighting a "War on Christmas" can get fucked.

 

[Warped9]

In other words, when I, an ex-Christian, say "Merry Christmas" I don't mean it as right-winger "we Christians vs. you Muslims/Jews/atheists" style. I mean it as "we all belong together", Christmas as a signifier for universality. Political correctness, commercial Christmas or a paganification of Christmas can't achieve this.

 

[Kestra]

This is pretty much what I don't like about Christmas.

 

[horatio83]

That's an interesting interpretation, and I'm sure some people do mean it that way, but you have to understand it is not always meant that way, and nor is it interpreted that way by non-believers.

Now, I am perfectly willing to take "Merry Christmas" or any other seasonal greeting in stride, particularly if it's somebody I know and I have no reason to question their motives. But the folks who push the notion of a "War on Christmas" encourage Christians to say "Merry Christmas" specifically because it agitates against "political correctness" and pisses off those godless atheists.

As a perfect example of what I'm talking about, a member on this very board has this as their avatar:

Tell me, what the hell is inclusive about that? Bill O'Reilly pointing a gun at you, demanding you say "Christmas." Yeah, no implied coercion or religious oppression there. Even in jest, I don't find it all that amusing. If folks feel like hearing "Happy Holidays" diminishes the meaning of Christmas, well, tough shit. Someone snarling "Merry Christmas" at me because they think they're fighting a "War on Christmas" can get fucked.

Let me be blunt, these "war on Christmas" folks are the enemy.
But aren't they somehow the flipside of political correctness?

Don't get me wrong, I don't wanna live in a place where you can utter racist and sexist slurs without any punishment. But I fear that the problem of political correctness is that it works as an explicit rule. Implicit rules are much more powerful.
We all have at least once experiences such an awkward, embarrassing moment in which we have not been aware of the implicit rules in a particular social space. Strangely enough more terrorizing than the knowledge about having violated an explicit rule.
Back to political correctness, over here we had a (social democratic!) central banker who wrote a racist book last year. There was an immediate, political correct public outcry. But the problem was that afterwards all main parties basically took over his thesis in a more moderate form, they basically said "yeah, what a horrible racist but he addresses real problems and real fears of the population". This strange intertwinement of political correctness with the thing it fights against worries me.
I would like to live in a society where somebody who writes such a racist book is just not taken seriously, he just disqualifies himself because he has violated an implicit rule.

Back to your point, the problem of the left is that they always leave the terrain to the enemy. Remember the sixties, there was liberation theology, there was Martin Luther King, religion also served a progressive role. That's where we have to get back to, even if we are atheists. Just take MLK's last speech, even for a non-believer the words promised land and mountaintop are incredibly powerful.

Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.
This is the Christianity we should fight for, against the fake Christianity of homophobia, sexism, war, inequality and exclusion.

 

[sidious618]

In other words, when I, an ex-Christian, say "Merry Christmas" I don't mean it as right-winger "we Christians vs. you Muslims/Jews/atheists" style. I mean it as "we all belong together", Christmas as a signifier for universality. Political correctness, commercial Christmas or a paganification of Christmas can't achieve this.

So you're just going to ignore everyone else's points against you? What horatio is saying doesn't even make any sense because Christmas is still seen as a religious holiday and not as some sort of universal holiday.

 

[horatio83]

Which points by whom? I just argued in length why I am for a universality beyond political correctness, why I am for the real, universal and against the fake, right-wing Christianity.
Me, a hardcore materialist, celebrates Christmas with other atheists and with Christians and we all say "Merry Christmas" to each other. So at least in my family it is a universal event.
On a social level my best guess would be to categorize it as an economic event. Days off, presents, extra salary, these are all economic issues.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Which points by whom? I just argued in length why I am for a universality beyond political correctness, why I am for the real, universal and against the fake, right-wing Christianity.
Me, a hardcore materialist, celebrates Christmas with other atheists and with Christians and we all say "Merry Christmas" to each other. So at least in my family it is a universal event.
On a social level my best guess would be to categorize it as an economic event. Days off, presents, extra salary, these are all economic issues.

What you propose amounts to norming Christianity for the whole world, which strikes me as rather repulsive and insensitive to anyone who isn't a Christian. I get that you think there is a universal inclusiveness to Christianity, but you seem to have no idea what the religious parameters are in the US, where Christian groups have a large voice in our political discourse and use their power to disenfranchise and oppress others--non-Christians, gays, etc. It's all well and good to believe in the universality of Christmas when you live in a country where that doesn't mean "you celebrate our fucking holiday the way we tell you to, and be grateful for the privilege!"

 

[horatio83]

I don't wanna norm Christianity, I merely don't play the postmodern game of "every version of Christianity is fine". The result of this is the very problem you have pointed out so neatly with this ugly O'Reilly poster. If you wanna tolerate this version of Christianity, go ahead, I rather fight it.

Don't you realize that you are caught in their game? They have grown so powerful that they define what Christianity is, that you don't believe anymore that the Christian left can become powerful again.
If we leave this cultural institution to them they can only become more powerful.
I am not religious, I am a hardcore materialist but I am more moved by a MLK speech than by one of a postmodern, decaffeinated, political correct lefty. Don't let the enemy define what Christianity is. Same with family, when right-wingers talk about family don't retreat and counter with patch-work family blabla, confront them and point out how their politics have destroyed families. Don't leave the terrain to the enemy and then wonder why he has become so strong.

 

[Mary Ann]

This is pretty much what I don't like about Christmas.

Agreed. Happy holidays, my friend.

 

[sidious618]

Don't you realize that you are caught in their game? They have grown so powerful that they define what Christianity is, that you don't believe anymore that the Christian left can become powerful again.
If we leave this cultural institution to them they can only become more powerful. The goal is to take it away from them, not to surrender more and more territory and then wonder why one has no power anymore.

I am not religious, I am a hardcore materialist but I am more moved by a MLK speech than by one of a postmodern, decaffeinated, political correct lefty. Don't let the enemy define what Christianity is. Same with family, when right-wingers talk about family don't retreat and counter with patch-work family blabla, confront them and point out how their politics have destroyed families. Never leave the terrain to the enemy.

What?! This is insanity.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Don't you realize that you are caught in their game? They have grown so powerful that they define what Christianity is, that you don't believe anymore that the Christian left can become powerful again.
If we leave this cultural institution to them they can only become more powerful. The goal is to take it away from them, not to surrender more and more territory and then wonder why one has no power anymore.

I am not religious, I am a hardcore materialist but I am more moved by a MLK speech than by one of a postmodern, decaffeinated, political correct lefty. Don't let the enemy define what Christianity is. Same with family, when right-wingers talk about family don't retreat and counter with patch-work family blabla, confront them and point out how their politics have destroyed families. Never leave the terrain to the enemy.

What?! This is insanity.

Yeah, seriously.

So Christianity is not what Christians claim it is? Holy shit. How does that work?

 

[horatio83]

Gee, how often do I have to repeat myself? There is the Christianity of Bill O'Reilly and there is the Christianity of Martin Luther King, there is a Christian left and there is a Christian right.
Most institutional Christianity leans to the right but if you actually study pre-Roman Christianity, the first two or three centuries of it, plus all the stuff Jesus actually said you realize that Christianity is about universality, sharing property and peace.

In other words, the Gospels plus pre-institutional Christianity have more common with the Christianity of MLK than with that of Bill O'Reilly. You have a Martin Luther King day, why do I stupid Teuton have to explain this to you?

You guys need some serious reeducation if you are caught so tightly in the webs of enemy propaganda.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Gee, how often do I have to repeat myself? There is the Christianity of Bill O'Reilly and there is the Christianity of Martin Luther King, there is a Christian left and there is a Christian right.
Most institutional Christianity leans to the right but if you actually study pre-Roman Christianity, the first two or three centuries of it, plus all the stuff Jesus actually said you realize that Christianity is about universality, sharing property and peace.

In other words, it has more in common with the Christianity of MLK.

The Christianity I take issue with is that which turns Christmas into a political exercise, claiming there is some "War on Christmas" going on, and that asking people to say "Happy Holidays" if they don't know what someone celebrates is an onerous burden and makes baby Jesus cry.

If I know what someone celebrates, I use the appropriate greeting. If I don't, it's "Happy Holidays." All I ask is the same consideration. But no, I just want to ruin Christmas for all the little children.

I get that you live in an environment where this stuff isn't horribly politicized. Good for you. Not so in the USA.

 

[horatio83]

Why do I have the feeling that we are going in circles? I already said that the Christian right is the enemy, we totally agree about this. The current Pope comes from Germany, believe me, I know very well what right-wing Christianity is.

I fail to see why you don't understand my point about leaving the terrain to the enemy. We need more MLKs, not more atheists. I am an atheist but I totally support all Christian left-wingers precisely because they are the only ones who can battle the Christian right-wingers.
Doesn't it strike you as strange that the increasing numbers of atheists, the growing number of atheist publications and so on goes hand in hand with the rise of the Christian right?