What Do You Think Is Out There?

[Gary7]

All just my thoughts of course. Snow monkeys may know more.

Good thoughts, an interesting exercise. The Snow Monkeys know less, but in a way they are able to live more freely because of it. Knowledge is an enabler, but it also entraps.

Intention. Most important thing in any discussion. If one side is too opaque or deceptive about their intention, you can't have a productive discussion. Belief is another... as it ties to emotion. It has been proven that when someone is emotionally invested in a perspective, facts that contradict it mean practically nothing. A person will seek out what supports and discard what conflicts, because of ego.

My ego is only thirsty for the truth. And sometimes the truth is hard to behold, if not elusive.

But bottom line, looking at any religion, you MUST look at the context and appreciate the mindset of the people who authored original texts. Only then can you understand intention and comprehension. We are so far from the context that it's hard to afford tangible meaning. Just because something is cherished and passed on with little deviation doesn't serve as proof of truth. But people use it as such, which only heightens the belief system. Right leaning political interests declare that the only morality can come from God. And of course, the only communication is by these human written texts. And that... is a conundrum, a fallacy in of itself. Morality is much more basic. It's a matter of proper upbringing to be able to understand and embrace it.

 

[Kirby]

But why make Satan? Why not just make Satan go poof?

Satan was an angel that turned away from God. God didn’t make Satan go ‘poof’ because Satan, like the rest of us, has free will. I wouldn’t be surprised if God holds himself to the commandments as well, including “Thou Shall Not Kill.”

The concept of evil sucks, and I hope that at some point, hopefully in whatever form the afterlife takes, we’ll understand the true purpose of evil in our world.

 

[rahullak]

Good thoughts, an interesting exercise. The Snow Monkeys know less, but in a way they are able to live more freely because of it. Knowledge is an enabler, but it also entraps.

Intention. Most important thing in any discussion. If one side is too opaque or deceptive about their intention, you can't have a productive discussion. Belief is another... as it ties to emotion. It has been proven that when someone is emotionally invested in a perspective, facts that contradict it mean practically nothing. A person will seek out what supports and discard what conflicts, because of ego.

My ego is only thirsty for the truth. And sometimes the truth is hard to behold, if not elusive.

But bottom line, looking at any religion, you MUST look at the context and appreciate the mindset of the people who authored original texts. Only then can you understand intention and comprehension. We are so far from the context that it's hard to afford tangible meaning. Just because something is cherished and passed on with little deviation doesn't serve as proof of truth. But people use it as such, which only heightens the belief system. Right leaning political interests declare that the only morality can come from God. And of course, the only communication is by these human written texts. And that... is a conundrum, a fallacy in of itself. Morality is much more basic. It's a matter of proper upbringing to be able to understand and embrace it.

Sure. I have not read the Bhagavad Gita myself from end-to-end, but it is said that in it, Krishna says he has given what knowledge and wisdom he can, it is up to the receiver to question, think, doubt and figure out what works for him.

I think at the end of the day, the belief system we carry can help us make sense of the world and will always be secondary to living a good life, improving ourselves daily in the work and duties that we carry out, be more compassionate, and when older, rise by bringing up more people in the same good vein etc.

 

[rhubarbodendron]

[...]There is quite possibly a....dimension or force or all-pervasive consciousness that allows us to create things. To take a reverse-analogy from Information Technology, a cloud. We quite possibly have this ability to read and write onto this cloud. But the ability to do this varies in degree from person to person. [...]

That's an interesting concept. But wouldn't the minds of many little talented people add up to be stronger than those of the very gifted ones? For example, if the majority of people had racist tendencies, would that create an racially intolerant deity? Wouldn't WW1 and 2 have automatically lead to the creation of one or several very strong war gods? Or is there a sort of threshold one has to be strong enough to pass in order to enter the cloud?

Knowledge is an enabler, but it also entraps.

That's only too true. It's a phenomenon I have to fight on a daily base in my job. It's important to take nothing for granted and to ignore one's own convictions in order to keep one's mind open for alternatives that one otherwise would overlook.

 

[Amaris]

Sometimes I think the Earth is replete with war gods, all too human ones. The level of anger, outrage, hatred, bigotry, and violence makes me want to step back, to step away from humanity at times. If there were blood thirsty war gods out there, they couldn't have picked a better planet to play around with. We humans are more than willing to act on our fears and ignorance. It's a veritable playground of bloodlust and bloodshed. I believe in a Moon Goddess, Selene, and I believe she travels with us, offers us comfort and wisdom. She's not like an all-powerful deity, just a very long lived one who has seen all there is to see under the stars, and from her perch above. That waxes more than a bit romantic, and is quite fanciful, but if there are war gods, then I am free to believe in my goddess who approved not of war, but of a peace for all.

 

[Pingfah]

There's nowt. Maybe some aliens. There is no spirituality, it is all in the mind, which is not to say that it is necessarily a bad thing.

 

[rahullak]

That's an interesting concept. But wouldn't the minds of many little talented people add up to be stronger than those of the very gifted ones? For example, if the majority of people had racist tendencies, would that create an racially intolerant deity? Wouldn't WW1 and 2 have automatically lead to the creation of one or several very strong war gods? Or is there a sort of threshold one has to be strong enough to pass in order to enter the cloud?

Those are good questions.

If I am to extend my thinking further, the minds of many talented people could add up if someone powerful enough created something for them to feed off of, eg. modern terrorism. It did not exist before the 1970s or 1960s. A "Jihad" was artificially created in conjunction with several people BIn Laden, the US government etc. This was based on something that already existed but twisted to suit cancerous intentions - the peaceful religion of Islam and the concept of a jihad borrowed from the time of the crusades in the middle-east. There are degrees of power obviously. I can create a new word or concept and let it out here on TBBS or the internet. Unless it captures people's imaginations, it isn't likely to go viral. Even if it did go viral, most likely would taper off. It has to have "staying power".

As for racist tendencies, yes it does add up to create racial intolerance which exists not just inside people's heads but also in the shared consciousness. But, there would be counterforces. If the majority of people are not so racist or who find racism troubling, eventually the arc of the moral universe would bend toward justice. Eg. Hitler hated the Jews, by feeding off of the racial intolerance and by ruling through fear and military doctrine he created the holocaust. But once he was defeated, we had enormous support the world over for the Jews and their plight. This probably strengthened them, and one of the reasons enabling them to carve out a nation state.

As for WW1 and WW2, the initial skirmishes were started based on the ideas of resource grabbing, violence, battles and eventually war that already existed in the shared consciousness. It was just taken to a whole new level where milliions ended up getting killed. And after WW2, the collective consciousness of the people, condensed into the minds of the leaders of that time decided that "War...uh, what is it good for? Absolutely Nothing, say it again now!"

I'm thinking there are levels of access. If I can access the skills of persuasion present in the cloud, then I become good at that and with that I could go about creating stuff that people could believe in and even consider as knowledge. If it is strong and timeless, it will last. Modern science is a good example of concepts created that withstand critical examinations and tests because it is based on an underlying reality which shows consistent results on multiple experiments.

caveat: Even if my thoughts are anything approaching reality, I still don't profess to know the full nature of the cloud and it's laws.

 

[Amaris]

I firmly believe that much of humanity is good, just easily mislead. Our intentions can be used against us by those who seek to obtain and retain power over others. As a result, we end up doing bad things without even realizing we're doing them until after the fact.

 

[rahullak]

I would say that power is needed and it is not wrong to seek it. We cannot maintain society or an advanced civilization without power structures and hierarchies. It is in the usage of that power that individuals lead themselves or others astray. And yes, since the future is not written in stone, and the effects of certain can only be felt after the fact, we may end up doing bad things even with the best of intentions. Climate change comes to mind. But those in power have the ability to act on it, once theories comes to light and are proven to be correct. Not acting in the proper manner or direction is then an individual and organizational failure. On the whole the moral arc of the universe bends towards justice however, and the mild proof for that is that after 70+ years of having planet glassing and devastating weapons, we are still alive and kicking.

 

[Amaris]

There are times when everything is so loud, so bright, so fast paced and flashing that I can’t focus, I can’t concentrate. So many responsibilities, and people clamoring for my attention, so many worries sitting on top of my chest, so many fears blaring at me from the back of my mind, that peace is elusive and, for all intents and purposes, non-existent.

Then there are the times where I am so in tune with everything, I can stop, kneel to the earth, place my palm on the dirt, and feel her heartbeat. For a moment, less than that, a split moment, I can sense it all, see everything, from the tiniest subatomic particle to the largest supercluster, and for that half-breath, it’s all there, and I feel complete.

It doesn’t last, of course, but it has been increasing in frequency. I’ve been working to reconcile my existence with what I see as injustice, whether it be against other humans, other living creatures, or the earth herself. The more I work it out in my mind, and offload the excess to my heart to sort through, the more I’m coming to understand. This. THIS is what my brain was designed to do. This is the course I am on.

I don’t know where this is going, but I welcome it.

 

[Leviathan]

In increasing order of abundance: Rocks. Ice. Hydrogen. Stupidity.

 

[Doom Shepherd]

Satan was an angel that turned away from God. God didn’t make Satan go ‘poof’ because Satan, like the rest of us, has free will.

Honestly I'd have expected a being which literally can do anything even conceivable to have figured out a way to make everything awesome without actually violating free will. It's kind of right there on the label: "Omniscient and Omnipotent."

I wouldn’t be surprised if God holds himself to the commandments as well, including “Thou Shall Not Kill.”

Dude, have you READ that book? God kills his way through the entire first half, almost as though he'd originally been a bloodthirsty savage War God that some nutters decided to put in charge of the pantheon and then later pretend his siblings didn't exist.* God kills considerably more people, DIRECTLY, than Satan does.

*This is, what many Biblical historians believe, a thing that actually happened, and the reasoning behind "No other Gods BEFORE me."

 

[Gul Sengosts]

What's an "atheist agnostic"? Atheist or agnostic? Seems mutually exclusive to me.

Personally, I'm atheist. I went through periods of Christianity, agnosticism and Taoism, but the more I thought about all this stuff, the more atheist I became. Today, I'm more convinced of atheism than I ever was of anything else.

 

[Amaris]

What's an "atheist agnostic"? Atheist or agnostic? Seems mutually exclusive to me.

Personally, I'm atheist. I went through periods of Christianity, agnosticism and Taoism, but the more I thought about all this stuff, the more atheist I became. Today, I'm more convinced of atheism than I ever was of anything else.

An atheist agnostic is an atheist who holds that there likely is no god, but that we don't, or can't, really ever know for certain. It's atheism, but with a clause that allows for uncertainty. Most atheists are agnostic atheists.

 

[Gul Sengosts]

Ok, so it basically means "I'm pretty sure there is no such thing"?

 

[Amaris]

Ok, so it basically means "I'm pretty sure there is no such thing"?

Essentially. There are lots of labels, and so many filters through which to view things, sometimes it's difficult keeping them all straight. When I was an atheist, I was agnostic atheist, which is just atheist in all practical terms, but for some people, that differentiation between agnostic atheism and gnostic atheism (saying that we know for certain that there are no other gods) is important.

 

[Gul Sengosts]

Ok, so to clarify: I am atheist but am aware that since my brain is limited I can't possibly ever know for certain that there is nothing. I can't rule out there's some higher being, just as I can't rule out Santa is living on the north pole or there's a giant buddhist badger in Earth's core controlling our thoughts. I feel safe assuming there's neither, and I'm confident there's neither. That's my atheism, and I guess that's how atheist you can get without claiming supernatural knowledge.

 

[Refuge]

If what exists is limited to the sole understanding of a human brain then that must be very self-fulfilling. I can understand why people are not spiritual and respect their confidence.

 

[Gul Sengosts]

Is spiritualism beyond the human brain?

 

[Amaris]

Ok, so to clarify: I am atheist but am aware that since my brain is limited I can't possibly ever know for certain that there is nothing. I can't rule out there's some higher being, just as I can't rule out Santa is living on the north pole or there's a giant buddhist badger in Earth's core controlling our thoughts. I feel safe assuming there's neither, and I'm confident there's neither. That's my atheism, and I guess that's how atheist you can get without claiming supernatural knowledge.

That's the long and the short of it, yes. Since we can't know to any level of 100% absolute certainty, then the default position is that even if it were real, it has zero effect on how we're living now, and that we should continue to live as we would were we 100% certain it didn't exist.