What differences are there between Mangels/Martin and Martin solo?

[rfmcdpei]

I raise the question evidenced in the title because it's been said repeatedly in the criticism of Fallen Gods that Martin's solo work falls below the standards he set in his former collaboration with Mangels.

I'm not clear, though, as to how exactly Mangels/Martin and Martin solo actually differ, since on a re-reading Taking Wing has reads much like the latest Titan novel, for good and for ill.

Help?

 

[starri]

It's been a while since I've read Taking Wing, but for my money, solo-Martin just doesn't quite have the knack with the characters that the Mangels/Martin team had. It makes sense for Ra-Haverii to still be tortured over what happened on the Luna at first, but he still hasn't moved beyond that. And that's just the best example I can remember off the top of my head.

No one has really moved forward.

 

[zarkon]

If no one's moving forward, then no one's evolving, and if no ones evolving, I think that makes them fair game for Ree.

in the next book anyone not sufficently cheery is lunch

that'll learn em

 

[Thrawn]

Yeah, it's definitely the character development. Mangels said that the worldbuilding and politics weren't his strengths, and that's all that Martin does without him - he makes worlds that could be interesting, and he keeps track of all the logistics. But Mangels would do all the character development, all the scenes that made each book feel human. I think it's extremely obvious that something's been lacking in that department ever since he left. Martin by himself writes books that feel soulless.

 

[Mage]

Martin writes static characters. He thinks about how they act, and that's it. That's who they are, and they don't change. No development at all, anything that happens to/with a character is reset at the end, and all is fine.

 

[Skywalker]

Yeah, I always saw Martin as the plot guy, and Mangels as the character guy. Without Mangels, there's only plot, and the characters suffer.

 

[Zman1]

Yeah, I always saw Martin as the plot guy, and Mangels as the character guy. Without Mangels, there's only plot, and the characters suffer.

Agreed. The characterization is less but i think it is improving. However I'm more plot and storyline than character driven anyway so not so much a problem for me.

I want to read a novel from Mr. Mangels to justly compare/contrast the differences between all 3. It seems unfair to only compare one authors solo work vs. one of their collaborations.

 

[Relayer1]

Michael Martins solo stuff isn't all great - I didn't like Seize The Fire much, but then I didn't like Zero Sum Game either and no-one's moaning about David Mack. Some of Michael's stuff I've certainly found enjoyable.

Put it this way, I've read a lot worse Treklit than even his less stellar novels, some fairly recently. I wish people would cut him some slack.

 

[Sci]

My essential problems with Martin's work post-Mangels has been two-dimensional characterizations; clunky dialogue and clunky prose (sentences like, and I paraphrase, "In acquiescence to basic Newtonian physics, she drifted across the zero-gravity room"); "cutsey" plot developments (the ending to To Brave the Storm -- the reporter figures out the [badly-kept] big secret and then just smiles and lets it go?); the occasional continuity faux pas (T'Pau as First Minister or Administrator; Andor's post-Borg Invasion capital as Laibok or Lor'Vela); and some bad background detail choices (why are United Earth starships pre-Federation called "U.S.S." in the Romulan War novels? why did he put the U.E. Prime Minister's office at the Place de la Concorde? why did he depict the U.E. MACOs as still existing as a major armed force in the 24th Century? The entire point of the Federation is that it is a Federation, not a vehicle for Earth to dominate others).

Of these problems, the first three are the most important.

 

[Relayer1]

My essential problems with Martin's work post-Mangels has been two-dimensional characterizations; clunky dialogue and clunky prose (sentences like, and I paraphrase, "In acquiescence to basic Newtonian physics, she drifted across the zero-gravity room"); "cutsey" plot developments (the ending to To Brave the Storm -- the reporter figures out the [badly-kept] big secret and then just smiles and lets it go?); the occasional continuity faux pas (T'Pau as First Minister or Administrator; Andor's post-Borg Invasion capital as Laibok or Lor'Vela); and some bad background detail choices (why are United Earth starships pre-Federation called "U.S.S." in the Romulan War novels? why did he put the U.E. Prime Minister's office at the Place de la Concorde? why did he depict the U.E. MACOs as still existing as a major armed force in the 24th Century? The entire point of the Federation is that it is a Federation, not a vehicle for Earth to dominate others).

Of these problems, the first three are the most important.

I agree, but tight editing should have eliminated the majority of the continuity and prose issues. Characterisation, well, that's down to him...

 

[Sci]

My essential problems with Martin's work post-Mangels has been two-dimensional characterizations; clunky dialogue and clunky prose (sentences like, and I paraphrase, "In acquiescence to basic Newtonian physics, she drifted across the zero-gravity room"); "cutsey" plot developments (the ending to To Brave the Storm -- the reporter figures out the [badly-kept] big secret and then just smiles and lets it go?); the occasional continuity faux pas (T'Pau as First Minister or Administrator; Andor's post-Borg Invasion capital as Laibok or Lor'Vela); and some bad background detail choices (why are United Earth starships pre-Federation called "U.S.S." in the Romulan War novels? why did he put the U.E. Prime Minister's office at the Place de la Concorde? why did he depict the U.E. MACOs as still existing as a major armed force in the 24th Century? The entire point of the Federation is that it is a Federation, not a vehicle for Earth to dominate others).

Of these problems, the first three are the most important.

I agree, but tight editing should have eliminated the majority of the continuity and prose issues. Characterisation, well, that's down to him...

To a point. And mind you -- he's not bad. The problem is that his post-Mangels work hasn't been particularly good, either.

 

[Thrawn]

I think if he'd been writing Trek novels in the 90s along with, you know, John Vornholt and Smith & Rusch and Diane Carey, etc, that he wouldn't have stood out at all. But for me, the overall quality these days is so much better that he sticks out like a sore thumb. I find it hard to think of a single author that's published a Trek novel since Destiny that I wouldn't prefer to Martin by himself.

 

[Paper Moon]

I'm rereading the Titan parts of Seize the Fire (as in, the parts that take place on the Titan) right now to refresh my memory before reading Fallen Gods, and I gotta say, it's as bad as I remember it.

Reading StF feels like I'm watching a theater production, but I'm only able to use tunnel vision. My sights saccade back and forth between actors, but get nothing beyond a barely-functional view of the set, and nothing of the magnificent theater in which the play is taking place.

And the characters. Eesh. My biggest gripe is his depiction of Vale. She comes across as immature and stupid ("Let's just frag the thing!" "We can't do that, it'll set off a war with the Typhon Pact." … "We can't think of anything else, let's just frag the thing!"), in no way believable as an executive officer. She wasn't like that back in A Time To...; she was always pragmatic but never stupid. Riker comes across as more reactionary (and therefore stupid) than he really ever has. And starri is right about Ra-Havereii, although he hasn't had much "screen-time" in StF.

And if I remember how it ends correctly: "Brahma-Shiva is alive!" "Hm what? Oh look at that we blew it up. What were you saying?"

Honestly? It feels like a not-so-good Voyager episode. I don't mean that to insult Voyager, but it just has that bored, let's-phone-it-in quality.

Now, speaking to a couple of world-building-esque strengths that Martin has been able to repurpose successfully to other purposes:
-he's used Troi effectively so far, at least from story-telling perspectives. Her ability to differentiate the sources of the Gorn's anger (towards S'syrriax versus towards the Titan) is unique and goes far beyond, "Captain, I'm sensing hostility."
-I think he's done a convincing job reflecting humanoid instinctive fear/disgust of reptiles onto Gorn (S'syrriax's astonishment that the mammals onboard can have compassion)

And, if I remember correctly, the Hranrarii were well done. As Sci says, he's not a bad author, his recent works have simply been lackluster.

 

[JWolf]

I've found that Fallen Gods is Martin's worst solo Trek to date. I only rated it 2 stars out of 5.

 

[Paper Moon]

I've found that Fallen Gods is Martin's worst solo Trek to date. I only rated it 2 stars out of 5.

I'm hoping I like it better. I've heard that Fallen Gods is better than StF, but that that's all it's got going for it. Seize the Fire, to me, is mediocre, until they blow up Brahma-Shiva after learning it's sentient without a second thought. No mention of how awful it was to kill a sentient life-form. (At least none that were significant enough that I remember them, and I remember distinctly thinking at the time, wow, they're really not gonna say anything regretful??.) That crossed the line into bad, in my books.

The Romulan War books seemed uneven at best, and had some questionable editorial decisions (as in, things Martin clearly decided to keep in versus edit out) in the process of combining two books into one. (The extended sequence with Trip's nephew springs to mind as a bad call.) But none of them quite crossed the Brahma-Shiva line.

 

[Mage]

Michael Martins solo stuff isn't all great - I didn't like Seize The Fire much, but then I didn't like Zero Sum Game either and no-one's moaning about David Mack. Some of Michael's stuff I've certainly found enjoyable.

Put it this way, I've read a lot worse Treklit than even his less stellar novels, some fairly recently. I wish people would cut him some slack.

Sure, Zero Sum Game wasn't Mack's best work. But (to me) his worst novel is still beter then Martin's best. And Martin has had a string of misses for most people. And even when Martin and Mangels were still a team, their novels had their share of rough corners, where things seemed a bit cliched.

The Sundered, the first two Titan novels, their entry in the Section 31 series, they all had the same problems. In hind sight, to most people, it appears that was all thanks to Martin, since his solo work is not that good sadly. However, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, if Mangels ever got the change to write some solo Trek, and we could compare.

But right now, the issues I had with their collaberations are all appereant in Martin's solo work, which leads me to believe he was always the weak link in that team.

 

[starri]

To me, it's frustrating that one of the single best pieces of character development, the stuff involving Melora's holopresence system, and the wonderful scene where Councilor Hulian forces her to realize that she hasn't actually left her quarters for days...that took place in Mere Mortals.

 

[BillJ]

Has Andy Mangels pitched anymore Trek books? Seems odd that since he and Martin went their separate ways, that Pocket has only published books from Martin.

 

[Thrawn]

To me, it's frustrating that one of the single best pieces of character development, the stuff involving Melora's holopresence system, and the wonderful scene where Councilor Hulian forces her to realize that she hasn't actually left her quarters for days...that took place in Mere Mortals.

Why is that frustrating? Mere Mortals was great.

 

[Mage]

To me, it's frustrating that one of the single best pieces of character development, the stuff involving Melora's holopresence system, and the wonderful scene where Councilor Hulian forces her to realize that she hasn't actually left her quarters for days...that took place in Mere Mortals.

Why is that frustrating? Mere Mortals was great.

If I understand Starri correctly, he means it's frustrating that the best piece of character development a character from Titan saw, was not in an actual Titan novel.