What behind-the-scenes detail(s) do you remember being particularly interesting or surprising to learn?

[Laughing Dragon]

Seriously, what the fuck are you even talking about? None of that makes any kind of sense considering what this part of the discussion is about. You claimed the episode “Plato’s Stepchildren” was banned in most southern states. And someone provided evidence that it absolutely wasn’t. I don’t know what’s so complicated about that to understand and why that would lead you to throw around wild accusations that someone is defending fucking racists.

Woah, no offense but another mod pointed ME out.? I said it nicely looks like I touched a nerve. Swearing and all. Also, getting something wrong if that's the case is not deserving of such an aggressive reaction. So what if some place was being racist? What's the big deal?

A "good bad influence" also does not give me much confidence.

 

[DonIago]

I get your point there. The way she struggles tells me that she was trying to explain it without harming Odan's feelings, and without presenting herself as a singularly bigoted or backwards person, and that admittedly imprecise part of "human failing" was simply a way to express it under those conditions. Certainly not a medical diagnosis, or truly speaking "for all mankind". There are many examples where everyday language is used like that. Vulcans don't lie. Starfleet doesn't lie. Klingons put honor above all else. etc.

So, she overstated how many people would really be uncomfortable with it to cover her personal discomfort?

That seems very possible, but also feels a bit beneath her, and I question whether that was the intention of the people responsible for the line.

To the posters claiming there were concerns about pushback against the episode, I'll note that Wikipedia has no indication that that was ever on anyone's mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Host_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)

 

[Laughing Dragon]

Are you suggesting that I defended the south? Because if you are, I would like you to quote me where I did anything of that nature. And if you can't quote me doing so, then I'd like an apology from you, as I would take such an accusation as a personal attack.

Well, what are you doing? If this is about homosexuality why even care about an old show's accuracy or not anyway when it comes to race relations back then? Not like todays Trek. Also, you thumbed up swearing. I am not sure I can take you seriously.

 

[Michael]

I get your point there. The way she struggles tells me that she was trying to explain it without harming Odan's feelings, and without presenting herself as a singularly bigoted or backwards person, and that admittedly imprecise part of "human failing" was simply a way to express it under those conditions. Certainly not a medical diagnosis, or truly speaking "for all mankind". There are many examples where everyday language is used like that. Vulcans don't lie. Starfleet doesn't lie. Klingons put honor above all else. etc.

Perhaps we can all (or most of us ) agree that at the very least her wording is rather imprecise, considering how many differing interpretations there seem to be. From my point of view this was obviously written in a time when they didn’t dare even just implying that Beverly would be able of feeling some same-sex attraction (let alone accepting the sex-change of a lover) and that’s why they made her line sound so definitive and stand-offish. And yes, as you had mentioned, this was at the end of a 45 minute TV episode where they liked to wrap everything up and reset it to the status quo. So really, there was never any chance of them letting Beverly give herself some time to figure out how she wanted to go forward with Odan.

Really mean no offense. But what would saying just her do when the whole thing about trek is a commentary on human society in general? People would feel less comfortable with it just being about her. Better to be able to push these messages instead of outright getting cancelled. Thats not on them. ST was faced with this before. Its broad because I don't know... maybe because Roddenberry did not approve? If she went out and out, I am being a homophobe? Real gays? The general world at the time was homophobic. Whether you like it or not. you really think people just did not want to do things? Seeing the shoe on the other foot would be the best way to go with it like the other controversial episode where Riker falls for a woman where human ways were seen as unnatural. Pretty smart, I think. And should be appreciated for its time. These new shows had it easy.

Wow, that’s some word salad right there.

Woah, no offense but another mod pointed ME out.? I said it nicely looks like I touched a nerve. Swearing and all. Also, getting something wrong if that's the case is not deserving of such an aggressive reaction. So what if some place was being racist? What's the big deal?

A "good bad influence" also does not give me much confidence.

Swearing is not the problem and contrary to what you seem to believe has never been forbidden here. What is against the rules is attacking someone personally. Let me check, Mutai Sho-Rin called you out for questioning someone’s sexuality. And saying homosexuals were hated. The former would be flaming and the later might be trolling. Those are against the board rules.

 

[DonIago]

Well, what are you doing? If this is about homosexuality why even care about an old show's accuracy or not anyway when it comes to race relations back then? Not like todays Trek. Also, you thumbed up swearing. I am not sure I can take you seriously.

Why do you care enough to keep making claims you can't be bothered to substantiate?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

For context, you're replying to CorporalCaptain's reply to your post:
"The kiss between Uharua and Kirk they banned it in most southern states."

That is incorrect. Some people at NBC didn't like it in the script, some southern stations expressed concerns about it, but it was not banned anywhere in the USA.

Don't know what you mean by "from there" or "socially aware".

Exactly. Thank you.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

Why do you care enough to keep making claims you can't be bothered to substantiate?

You sound like you are trying to be a lawyer like most today. I can try to tap your phone. I can only just point out the fact that you and those in agreement came off as defensive and some in an aggressive manner. Its wiki and we all know that's not always dependable. People can even edit it. I'll go by actual documentaries. You chose Wiki. Let's just end with that, ok?

 

[DonIago]

You sound like you are trying to be a lawyer like most today. I can try to tap your phone. I can only just point out the fact that you and those in agreement came off as defensive and some in an aggressive manner. Its wiki and we all know that's not always dependable. People can even edit it. I'll go by actual documentaries. You chose Wiki. Let's just end with that, ok?

Please name the documentaries that you're relying upon, then.

You made this claim: "The kiss between Uharua and Kirk they banned it in most southern states." Not only did you not provide any evidence for it, but it was challenged. You've neither retracted it, that I've seen, nor apologized for making such a demonstrably false claim.

Why shouldn't I be highly skeptical of further claims from you in light of that?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Then no one cared that there was denial in this thread that the southerners never had a problem with the Kirk/Uhura kiss.

Bullshit. You made the false claim that the kiss had been banned in most southern states. That's what was challenged, the claim you made. Of course there were people who had a problem with it. But that wasn't the false statement made and challenged.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

Exactly. Thank you.

Thank you for what?

Also, thanks the south just had some problems with it. I will also go with people that actually live there.

Perhaps we can all (or most of us ) agree that at the very least her wording is rather imprecise, considering how many differing interpretations there seem to be. From my point of view this was obviously written in a time when they didn’t dare even just implying that Beverly would be able of feeling some same-sex attraction (let alone accepting the sex-change of a lover) and that’s why they made her line sound so definitive and stand-offish. And yes, as you had mentioned, this was at the end of a 45 minute TV episode where they liked to wrap everything up and reset it to the status quo. So really, there was never any chance of them letting Beverly give herself some time to figure out how she wanted to go forward with Odan.


Wow, that’s some word salad right there.


Swearing is not the problem and contrary to what you seem to believe has never been forbidden here. What is against the rules is attacking someone personally. Let me check, Mutai Sho-Rin called you out for questioning someone’s sexuality. And saying homosexuals were hated. The former would be flaming and the later might be trolling. Those are against the board rules.

Well, you are the only board I have ever been that where that is ok. Classy. But I think you may be meaning in general and not directed at others, then? I wanted to know why because I wanted to know if this was about questioning the existence of non-binary. It's not rude to the discussion if you want a better understanding. How many times do I have to say this. When did I say they were hated by me? Yes, they were and are hated? Thats the whole convo. The whole DAMN discussion about gays in Trek was because I SAID Roddenberry was homophobic about things that shocked me and that they used these episodes to subtly work their way around it, YEESH. It's the approach in the show one poster became obsessed with. Pointing that out is personal, then. Saying i was making excused first. Kinda like me bleeping pointing out the south later. Though that was not my intent on the time. What I did was not trolling or flaming just because you did not like it. Aggressive attacks with swearing is more like flaming. But since its ok here then no.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

Perhaps we can all (or most of us ) agree that at the very least her wording is rather imprecise, considering how many differing interpretations there seem to be. From my point of view this was obviously written in a time when they didn’t dare even just implying that Beverly would be able of feeling some same-sex attraction (let alone accepting the sex-change of a lover) and that’s why they made her line sound so definitive and stand-offish. And yes, as you had mentioned, this was at the end of a 45 minute TV episode where they liked to wrap everything up and reset it to the status quo. So really, there was never any chance of them letting Beverly give herself some time to figure out how she wanted to go forward with Odan.


Wow, that’s some word salad right there.


Swearing is not the problem and contrary to what you seem to believe has never been forbidden here. What is against the rules is attacking someone personally. Let me check, Mutai Sho-Rin called you out for questioning someone’s sexuality. And saying homosexuals were hated. The former would be flaming and the later might be trolling. Those are against the board rules.

It's only a word salad because you did not like it. I am being ranted at with like paragraphs long. Also, when you were dropping the f bomb you had only one sentence less. Also, no one has handwaved anyone away like this since the 90s. Also, as many people as you have been responding to outdoes me. And I rather just be left alone now as well rather than going around circles. Try and jeep up?

Please name the documentaries that you're relying upon, then.

You made this claim: "The kiss between Uharua and Kirk they banned it in most southern states." Not only did you not provide any evidence for it, but it was challenged. You've neither retracted it, that I've seen, nor apologized for making such a demonstrably false claim.

Why shouldn't I be highly skeptical of further claims from you in light of that?

Nah... just agree to disagree, this is not a court this is fiction. Give me more than Wiki.

 

[Michael]

Its wiki and we all know that's not always dependable. People can even edit it. I'll go by actual documentaries. You chose Wiki. Let's just end with that, ok?

Give me more than Wiki

Here’s NBC News (Link):

“Despite concerns from executives, "Plato's Stepchildren" aired without blowback. In fact, it got the most "fan mail that Paramount had ever gotten on Star Trek for one episode," Nichols said in a 2010 interview with the Archive of American Television.

[…]

While inside the show things were buzzing, the episode passed by the general public and the TV industry at that time almost without comment, said Robert Thompson, a Syracuse University professor of television and popular culture.

"It neither got the backlash one might have expected nor did it open the doors for lots more shows to do this," Thompson said.”

And here’s pages 196–197 of Nichelle Nichols’ memoir “Beyond Uhura” …

What now? You going to say these are edited too?

 

[Laughing Dragon]

Here’s NBC News (Link):


And here’s pages 196–197 of Nichelle Nichols’ memoir “Beyond Uhura”:

What now? You going to say these are edited too?

So... she just added other stuff? Why would I lie? Liberal bias?

 

[Michael]

Why would I lie?

I didn’t say you were. Nor did I see anyone else accuse you of lying. People just asked for a fucking source for your claim is all. It ain’t rocket science.

 

[NCC-73515]

because I SAID Roddenberry was homophobic

...did you mean Berman?
IIRC, Behr said Roddenberry wanted to show male homosexuality in Justice.

Concerning the story of southern TOS bans, I have often read that, and it came up in documentaries or BTS interviews IIRC, but I also can't find a valid source immediately.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

...did you mean Berman?
IIRC, Behr said Roddenberry wanted to show male homosexuality in Justice.

Concerning the story of southern TOS bans, I have often read that, and it came up in documentaries or BTS interviews IIRC, but I also can't find a valid source immediately.

Ahhh... no. It was a long time ago on another website. Because I did not bookmark it of course I cannot prove it. It's not hard to believe there would be more than one homophobe running Trek. Maybe he changed his mind later.

ETA: Its nice I was not the only one imagining things about the south in regard to the kiss between Kirk and Uhura. I tried to find the sources too. Strangely nothing. I thought this was common Trek knowledge. Whether it was "wrong" or not it was still said.

I didn’t say you were. Nor did I see anyone else accuse you of lying. People just asked for a fucking source for your claim is all. It ain’t rocket science.

You SHITTING me? Yes, they did. Not sure you should be speaking for others. I needed to give citation. Basically, the same thing, I think. But this whole convo was splitting hairs.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

IIRC Roddenberry (or someone close to him) did say he came around with his opinion regarding homosexuality by the time TNG happened. He did indeed promise gay characters for TNG, but when Berman took over he quickly made sure the idea got scrapped (and then some by making sure to prevent ANYthing that might even have hinted at the existence of same sex relationships).

 

[AntonyF]

I get your point there. The way she struggles tells me that she was trying to explain it without harming Odan's feelings, and without presenting herself as a singularly bigoted or backwards person, and that admittedly imprecise part of "human failing" was simply a way to express it under those conditions. Certainly not a medical diagnosis, or truly speaking "for all mankind". There are many examples where everyday language is used like that. Vulcans don't lie. Starfleet doesn't lie. Klingons put honor above all else. etc.

Yeah, she was being polite. If she had said "sorry I'm not into women" then the uproar would likely be even great. Instead she's saying it's not for me.

And as I said above, it was an INFATUATION. She was not in love. It was a holiday romance. She was acting like a lovesick teenager. And I think her migrating to Riker was odd but part of that infatuation.

I think there's a very good chance that if Odan had turned up as the third MAN in as many days that Beverley could have given the same response once she gained a cool head. Thinking I can't keep doing all this body swapping.

It seems the main issue is that Crusher dared to say "human", like she was some ambassador of humanity and tarring everyone with the same brush and making an official declaration. But humans aren't Trill and used to body swapping. So it's not an inaccurate statement. And I just found her trying to word it in a way that didn't sound culturally insensitive.

 

[Doug Otte]

Time to stop feeding the troll, I think. This otherwise interesting conversation about TNG has devolved into rambling, syntax- and grammar-challenged mudslinging.

 

[Oddish]

That a lot of Jellico's apparent dickishness was actually based on requests from cast members. Most notably deleting the fish from Picard's ready room and requiring Troi to wear a uniform.