What are your thoughts about seeing the prime universe again?

[Jesse1066]

Abrams, Orci, and Kurtzman were first approached about Star Trek in 2005, not long after Enterprise ended. Prime Trek wasn't dead, just sleeping. Now it's coming back, though I don't expect it to look quite the same as it used to. Either way, there's a big universe to work with. What really matters is what the writers can do with it.

 

[jaime]

Levirate marriage.

Interesting. Mandie was a part Cherokee part American Settler girl in the late 19th or early 20th Century USA. (Though it turns out she was written in 1982)
The books had more charm when I was about 12.

 

[jaime]

I asked this before, and I'm asking it again.

Most people here have been watching Star Trek for around 20-50 years. Maybe not consistently, but generally their fandoming began prior to 2009.

So how on Earth can they be considered as not being fans (aka 'haters') of the Prime universe?

There are some who, for whatever reason, decided nineties Trek, including TNG, was never 'true' Trek, or that somewhere between Voyager and Enterprise, Rick Berman and Brannon Braga (who did encourage his own reputation for perversity it must be said) did something questionable to their pets or elderly relatives. By Nemesis there was probably Necrotic tissue involved, other than Tom Hardy. The success of the reboots (that aren't really reboots, they had their cake and ate it, thereby proving JJ wouldn't know the laws of the physical universe if they served him a slushy) and the death of Enterprise gave them a Victory in their war with the younger fans who turned up on their lawn with their rave music and reversed colours for captains and engineers. For lo, thy engineers must wear red, red is the colour of thy engineers, and there are no women in your world of starship captains.
Their dislike of anything not containing their holy Trinity of He who who rips his shirt, he who scowls, and he who has points on his ears, means they would prefer to see this rebooted rather than the usurping New (not nu) Trek fans.
The Prime universe is more a result of TNG and its successors, so they dislike it instinctually. That the puritanical of their action packed trinity is now reduced to but a branch, while the Prime universe is stated to be returning, is the kind of affront that can lead to the founding of a new country or a banning of Christmas.

The religion parallels are amusing, and made this anthropological supposition possible.

 

[jaime]

I asked this before, and I'm asking it again.

Most people here have been watching Star Trek for around 20-50 years. Maybe not consistently, but generally their fandoming began prior to 2009.

So how on Earth can they be considered as not being fans (aka 'haters') of the Prime universe?

There are some who, for whatever reason, decided nineties Trek, including TNG, was never 'true' Trek, or that somewhere between Voyager and Enterprise, Rick Berman and Brannon Braga (who did encourage his own reputation for perversity it must be said) did something questionable to their pets or elderly relatives. By Nemesis there was probably Necrotic tissue involved, other than Tom Hardy. The success of the reboots (that aren't really reboots, they had their cake and ate it, thereby proving JJ wouldn't know the laws of the physical universe if they served him a slushy) and the death of Enterprise gave them a Victory in their war with the younger fans who turned up on their lawn with their rave music and reversed colours for captains and engineers. For lo, thy engineers must wear red, red is the colour of thy engineers, and there are no women in your world of starship captains.
Their dislike of anything not containing their holy Trinity of He who who rips his shirt, he who scowls, and he who has points on his ears, means they would prefer to see this rebooted rather than the usurping New (not nu) Trek fans.
The Prime universe is more a result of TNG and its successors, so they dislike it instinctually. That the puritanical of their action packed trinity is now reduced to but a branch, while the Prime universe is stated to be returning, is the kind of affront that can lead to the founding of a new country or a banning of Christmas.

The religion parallels are amusing, and made this anthropological supposition possible.

 

[jaime]

Literally every ship we saw (or heard about) Picard captaining, ended up in pieces. Sometimes the same ship was destroyed, multiple times. He even started the self destruct on the ENT-E in its first movie, and was only stopped due to outside interference. The Sisko was fighting in an intergalactic war, and still only managed to lose two!

Don't see how Kirk 'failed' to 'minimise' the death in his movies though. How is Vulcan, some skyscrapers, and the usual mince meat redshirts, not 'less' than 'Everybody in the entire Federation, twice over?'

Also - you can't include Romulus in your numbers. If we follow your rules in the blame game, that little incident was on Picard's watch. And maybe Janeway and Spock's.

True. But it did take slightly more than 5 hours of on screen adventures before it happens.

 

[Trekkin]

There are some who, for whatever reason, decided nineties Trek, including TNG, was never 'true' Trek, or that somewhere between Voyager and Enterprise, Rick Berman and Brannon Braga (who did encourage his own reputation for perversity it must be said) did something questionable to their pets or elderly relatives. By Nemesis there was probably Necrotic tissue involved, other than Tom Hardy. The success of the reboots (that aren't really reboots, they had their cake and ate it, thereby proving JJ wouldn't know the laws of the physical universe if they served him a slushy) and the death of Enterprise gave them a Victory in their war with the younger fans who turned up on their lawn with their rave music and reversed colours for captains and engineers. For lo, thy engineers must wear red, red is the colour of thy engineers, and there are no women in your world of starship captains.
Their dislike of anything not containing their holy Trinity of He who who rips his shirt, he who scowls, and he who has points on his ears, means they would prefer to see this rebooted rather than the usurping New (not nu) Trek fans.
The Prime universe is more a result of TNG and its successors, so they dislike it instinctually. That the puritanical of their action packed trinity is now reduced to but a branch, while the Prime universe is stated to be returning, is the kind of affront that can lead to the founding of a new country or a banning of Christmas.

The religion parallels are amusing, and made this anthropological supposition possible.

Somehow, I doubt that's it. Not in the least because I know some of the posters here were big defenders of Enterprise, VOY and DS9, even at the height of their notoriety.

There's also the little fact that most people know that even if Discovery was set in the Kelvin verse, it was never going to be TOS. It's not 1963, and never shall be again. That's also why being set in the Prime verse is not going to ensure that Discovery is more '90's' Trek.

That's why there's arguments that Fuller didn't mean 'Prime' in the way some people are taking it. Regardless of its setting, Discovery is a new series, being made in a different decade, by a new creative team who have already stated shits gonna get 'reimagined'. If people think 'Prime' is going to be TNG/ENT Phase II, they're in for a disappointment.

 

[jaime]

Somehow, I doubt that's it. Not in the least because I know some of the posters here were big defenders of Enterprise, VOY and DS9, even at the height of their notoriety.

There's also the little fact that most people know that even if Discovery was set in the Kelvin verse, it was never going to be TOS. It's not 1963, and never shall be again. That's also why being set in the Prime verse is not going to ensure that Discovery is more '90's' Trek.

That's why there's arguments that Fuller didn't mean 'Prime' in the way some people are taking it. Regardless of its setting, Discovery is a new series, being made in a different decade, by a new creative team who have already stated shits gonna get 'reimagined'. If people think 'Prime' is going to be TNG/ENT Phase II, they're in for a disappointment.

Sorry, I did mean that post in a slightly humorous vein, but parental multitasking dragged me away.

In terms of continuity, it's been stated it will be Prime, and it's overall team leans more to eighties and nineties Trek (as is logical, we are closer to that than the sixties, and they all, bar one, have worked on that specific era of Trek.) The current trends in TV pander towards the thirty something crowd, and the prevalent styles in sci fi and design lean that way too....I think it is likely, considering the cyclical nature of fashion and trends in general, that Discovery is going to resemble 90s Trek more than it will Sixties/Seventies Trek. Certainly in terms of storytelling, I suspect it will be more Ds9 than TOS.

I also expect it not to look like noughties Trek, the Kelvinverse being too bright for TV (from a certain point of view)

My gut feeling says it is going to lean into TMP, but with the texture levels of Ds9 if it had been made for HD. Stylistically, it will lean eighties, so movie era, but that always had a bleed through into the TV series, and of course has its roots in the mid to late seventies hard sci fi design school (phase 2) which dominated and shaped 80s design in Sf, and we are returning to somewhat now, the fashion for curves and bio ships seems to have tailed off.
It will probably avoid VR and cyberpunk stuff (which I usually love but doesn't sit well with Trek) as that is so 'now' again, thanks to video game tech, that it could date very very quickly. I am less sure about this.

All gut feelings based on what I see in the scene at the moment, particularly looking at what will be contemporaries.

 

[BillJ]

Their dislike of anything not containing their holy Trinity of He who who rips his shirt, he who scowls, and he who has points on his ears, means they would prefer to see this rebooted rather than the usurping New (not nu) Trek fans.

I really don't think this is the case. Many of us have been following this franchise for a really long time (1975 for me), and enjoy it all, to one degree or another. Heck, I just watched "Blood Fever" and "Unity" last night. Bought TNG seasons one thru five on Blu-ray and "All Good Things...", even though I already own TNG on DVD and it is all available on Netflix. Same with Enterprise, where I just bough the complete series this Spring on Blu, even though I own the series on DVD.

But there is a point where the continuity becomes a straight jacket. Doing something like Discovery means you have to nip around the edges of continuity, so you don't bring the canonistas down on you, going further into the future begins to bring tech that is akin to magic.

Someone not wanting the Prime timeline doesn't mean they hate the Prime timeline, nor does it mean they want Kirk and Spock at the center (though I'd personally be delighted). It just means they think that the Prime timeline has went as far as it can reasonably go. Maybe Fuller pulls it off, maybe he doesn't, or maybe he is doing a stealth reboot, where things are going to slowly change to the point it really isn't Prime anymore. Thinking the latter doesn't equate to some kind of disrespect of the Prime timeline by either Fuller or fans.

Discovery has me excited because I get to watch new Star Trek with my youngest son. Who was born in 2007, and this will be his first Star Trek series produced during his life.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Thanks for the trip down memory lane!

Not sure what you're actual issue is? The pro-Prime folks have acted far more like children in this thread than any of the people who didn't think we'd go back to the Prime timeline...

I don't have an "issue" per se. I was just answering to urbandefault when he said that ""Primers" misunderstand what folks like me have said". Oh no, we understood perfectly the posts about Prime's death and burial, and the doom and gloom such as we understand perfectly the reasonable ones like these below. Perhaps the biggest 'crime' against Trek that Abrams/Orzi/Kurtzman committed was dividing the fandom into "pro-Prime" and "pro-Kelvin" groups. And no I'm not going to compare the groups as to who acted more childish. That's childish!

And to answer your OP, this fan doesn't care if the prime timeline comes back or not. I just want to see good Star Trek in whatever form it takes.

I have no issues with the new timeline. But it wouldn't matter to me which timeline the stories take place in as long as they're good.

Although I prefer the previous 10 movies and 5 series than the 3 movies that followed, ultimately I agree with Dukhat and BillJ here.

You supposably weren't here for any of those, and some of the participants no longer post. Besides not being able to 'win' an argument that you never took part in (making your gloating(?) on the thread seems even sillier), why do you think anyone 'owes' you an admittance that they were apparently wrong?

I didn't know you were so curious about me! Should I feel flattered or worried? But to answer your curiosity, no I wasn't a member of Trekbbs then. But as a decades old Trek fan I was hanging around and reading the threads for much longer. So no I didn't take part and I didn't "win" any arguments back then. And I didn't realize I was gloating, it wasn't my intention. To answer your last question, no, no one owes me any admittance whether they were wrong or right.

 

[BillJ]

Perhaps the biggest 'crime' against Trek that Abrams/Orzi/Kurtzman committed against Trek was dividing the fandom into "pro-Prime" and "pro-Kelvin" groups.

We did that to ourselves. Fandom is just looking for someone to blame.

 

[jaime]

I really don't think this is the case. Many of us have been following this franchise for a really long time (1975 for me), and enjoy it all, to one degree or another. Heck, I just watched "Blood Fever" and "Unity" last night. Bought TNG seasons one thru five on Blu-ray and "All Good Things...", even though I already own TNG on DVD and it is all available on Netflix. Same with Enterprise, where I just bough the complete series this Spring on Blu, even though I own the series on DVD.

But there is a point where the continuity becomes a straight jacket. Doing something like Discovery means you have to nip around the edges of continuity, so you don't bring the canonistas down on you, going further into the future begins to bring tech that is akin to magic.

Someone not wanting the Prime timeline doesn't mean they hate the Prime timeline, nor does it mean they want Kirk and Spock at the center (though I'd personally be delighted). It just means they think that the Prime timeline has went as far as it can reasonably go. Maybe Fuller pulls it off, maybe he doesn't, or maybe he is doing a stealth reboot, where things are going to slowly change to the point it really isn't Prime anymore. Thinking the latter doesn't equate to some kind of disrespect of the Prime timeline by either Fuller or fans.

Discovery has me excited because I get to watch new Star Trek with my youngest son. Who was born in 2007, and this will be his first Star Trek series produced during his life.

Yeah my post didn't curve back the way I planned (early morning toddler attack) it was meant to be a sort of tongue in cheek look at some of the more extreme views.

I do disagree that continuity is a straight jacket, and if the writers think it is, frankly they aren't good enough. They need a Michael Piller basically.

In terms of slaving to canon...no one ever minds the jinks and tucks. Kor Kang and Koloth and their heads, Scotty thinking Kirks alive on the Jenolan, but staring into space on the enterprise B. Heck, I can even get my head around the missing NX class on the enterprise history displays (it was only called enterprise after First Contact affected the timeline. Shimples ) Bigger things (let's blow up Vulcan, lets beam across the whole of Space) don't even work in the context of a reboot, because it starts shifting into people not having good ideas even with a blank canvas...or with people wanting make series x into series y because they don't actually want series x, but series x has brand recognition (something oddly, which in a very odd way seemed to affect enterprise. They even dropped the Star Trek branding. It's also something that ends up with things like Caprica. ) But I am sure we have gone over a lot of that before and will again.

The show runner has chosen Prime, and that's great for the books on my shelf, like you I have a little Trekkie (or Trekker, as I believe I was told was the way to refer to us in the nineties) and am really hoping he can sit and watch it with me in January. That family viewing aspect is actually more important to me than what universe it is in, even if they have to have two options for edited and not. Or if they have to just imply rampant alien Alien Buggery, Cunning Linguistics, and the Bat'leth Beheadings and 20th Century colourful metaphor poetry contest in episode N, rather than going all game of thrones on us and filming it, then I think that's the way to go.

Rather than making series x in series y clothes,

 

[BillJ]

In terms of slaving to canon...no one ever minds the jinks and tucks.

You can't have been around here during the run of Enterprise.

 

[jaime]

You can't have been around here during the run of Enterprise.

No, my faith had lapsed around series 5 of Ds9 and sevens arrival on voyager....tbh it was more that I was working and had no time or means to view it.

 

[Trekkin]

Perhaps the biggest 'crime' against Trek that Abrams/Orzi/Kurtzman committed was dividing the fandom into "pro-Prime" and "pro-Kelvin" groups.

You mean...we weren't divided before? This is new information. I must test it

*ahem*

'DS9 was better than TNG, Janeway totally murdered Tuvix, ENT wasn't that bad, and Kirk's cooler than Picard!'



Argh!

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

You can't have been around here during the run of Enterprise.

You mean...we weren't divided before? This is new information. I must test it

*ahem*

'DS9 was better than TNG, Janeway totally murdered Tuvix, ENT wasn't that bad, and Kirk's cooler than Picard!'



Argh!

Why only go so recently? I was around (in Trek fandom not Trekbbs) when the whole "TOS vs. TNG" war started! Not to mention the "TMP vs. TWOK" skirmish! But I don't think I witnessed so much hate since the "Prime vs. Kelvin" battle. Maybe because… internet!

 

[JWPlatt]

If people think 'Prime' is going to be TNG/ENT Phase II, they're in for a disappointment.

I'm a Star Trek fan since the 60s and I've always wanted Discovery to be set in Prime (our universe), but ...

• I've written how I'd like to see it not tied to the look and feel of TOS, or be as canonically self-conscious as Enterprise, but something more contemporarily predictive of our future - not from the 60s' point of view - to align Prime back into our reality.
• I've written how I'd like to see Star Trek done in the Game of Thrones style with all the serialization and mature content therein. Though that might put off some parents from family viewing.

So while I qualify for your concerns, I certainly do not fit them.

 

[Dix]

Someone not wanting the Prime timeline doesn't mean they hate the Prime timeline, nor does it mean they want Kirk and Spock at the center (though I'd personally be delighted). It just means they think that the Prime timeline has went as far as it can reasonably go. Maybe Fuller pulls it off, maybe he doesn't, or maybe he is doing a stealth reboot, where things are going to slowly change to the point it really isn't Prime anymore. Thinking the latter doesn't equate to some kind of disrespect of the Prime timeline by either Fuller or fans.

In other words they were fed up with it and hoped that a clean slate policy would eventually be applied to a new TV show as well. Well, I'd say to those, then simply don't watch it. I do that with the nu movies; I don't like them so I don't go watch them in cinema. I can't erase them from history but I can at least erase them from my viewing list. So if you're fed up with the Star Trek universe (the so called prime timeline), then go watch something else. Forget about Star Trek then. I for one like and respect that universe/timeline, although it's become increasingly difficult to maintain the continuity since there's so much material now. But it's not impossible. I'd consider that a challenge. The writers/producers circumvented that problem, though, by setting the new show in the Trek past (again). I'm generally in favor of going forward (into the future), but I remain optimistic about this concept as well. I think Mr. Fuller respects the Trek universe sufficiently so I don't believe he'll pull an Abrams on us despite announcements of "re-imagining" some things.

 

[BillJ]

So if you're fed up with the Star Trek universe (the so called prime timeline), then go watch something else.

I don't know why it is seemingly all or nothing for one side of this argument? I like Star Trek, been watching since I was 4. I'll continue to watch Star Trek. Like I said in my post, maybe Fuller pulls it off. I'd prefer a full on reboot, but we don't always get what we prefer. If we did, I'd have Star Trek II (the abandoned 70's series) on Blu-ray on my shelf.

 

[BillJ]

And, let's be fair, lots of folks aren't getting what they wanted. Many of the folks here wanted a post-Nemesis show, which isn't happening.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

And, let's be fair, lots of folks aren't getting what they wanted. Many of the folks here wanted a post-Nemesis show, which isn't happening.

We've been over this before. I can't speak for the "many of the folks here" but I can say for myself that I am absolutely delighted that I'm getting a prequel to my all time favorite TV show! As for what I wanted I refer you to my previous post:

Couldn't be more wrong. I am a "proud member of the Prime camp" and if I had any saying I wouldn't have asked for a TNG/DS9/VOY/NEM continuation show. As I've said in another thread my dream TV series would have been an anthology series set in the "Lost Era" between TUC and TNG. Show us different crews and different ships such as the Enterprise-C, the Excelsior, the Enterprise-B, the Stargazer. Show us how the Federation, Klingon and Romulan politics evolved in that prime time period. But I don't see how my personal dream show makes me "dishonest" because I love that we're getting a prime pre-TOS show and not a Kelvin "whatever" show.