What are your opinions regarding Star Trek that are, shall we say, unorthodox?

[Shawnster]

Based on the "Boy Scout" line, I assume Kirk met David a few times. I wonder what Kirk did to make David recall him as a Boy Scout?

I always took the comment as sarcastic criticism of Kirk/Starfleet. The Boy Scout reference plays on the aspect of a uniformed service while simultaneously referring to Starfleet as children pretending to be in a uniformed government agency.

I don't think David ever met Kirk or, if he did, it was briefly. David only had stories or, possibly, recorded documentation about Kirk to form an opinion from.

 

[comsol]

I not crazy about the the Drexler NX-01 refit and I'm glad we never saw it in Enterprise.

Look, it's a beautiful design and Drexler clearly understood Matt Jeffries original Enterprise design on a fundamental level that that Ryan Church either did not or intentionally ignored in the JJ-verse. Drexler's amazing job is, ironically, why I don't like it in context.

Personally, I've always thought that the NX-01 design looked very awkward - and the refit even more awkward than the original. That's why I like it - it really helps to sell the idea that the ship is an older and more primitive design than the TOS Enterprise. In fact, it reminds me a lot of the Bonaventure from TAS in that regard.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

In its generic sense, "boy scout" is a put down implying a naïve, idealistic youth (or fully grown man) who aspires to be proper. It doesn't really have anything to do necessarily with being a formal member of anything or wearing a uniform.

"Overgrown" reinforces that this is how David assesses Kirk while Kirk was a young man, with Carol. He somehow thinks he has reason to believe that Kirk had those specific boyish qualities, of being naïve, being idealistic, and having a desire to behave properly.

Carol's rebuke means David read him wrong; Kirk might have been idealistic, but he wasn't so naïve, and we was not so proper.

 

[Firebird]

My perhaps unorthodox opinion is that people are fooling themselves when they say it's what we would have gotten in Season 5. The budget had already been slashed for Season 4; there's no way the network is letting them throw out all their stock shots of the ship and recreate everything from scratch just to satisfy some fannish desire for a separate engineering hull.

Another fun thought about Enterprise is if it had actually managed to go seven seasons, its final year would’ve gotten crippled by the 2007-08 writers strike.

Folks think TATV was a bad end to the show? Imagine if they had to junk a full third of the year (at least) and rush the back third of the season into production after getting back onto the stages.

 

[CoveTom]

Really can’t agree with this. Carol’s body, Carol’s rules. If she specifically doesn’t want the father to stick around, it would be actively aggressive and wrong for Kirk to try to fight his way in anyway.

Kirk’s not a “bad father” or “deadbeat dad” because, until TWOK, he’s not a father at all — by Carol’s choice. If Kirk then fought to push in on (young) David’s life anyway, he wouldn’t be a “father worth his salt” — he’d be the bad guy, period, and in need of the Federation equivalent of a court order.

Uh... no. Not even slightly. Not in the least. Absolutely not.

The "my body, my rules" argument is made in relation to unborn babies and abortion, and that is a totally separate argument, but here we are talking about a child who is born and totally separate from the mother. There is no plausible argument for "Carol's body, Carol's rules" and a father has just as much legal and moral right to be a part of a child's life as a mother does. 100%. Full stop.

Kirk is still a deadbeat dad, regardless of whether it was Carol's choice or not. And trying to be a part of David's life would not make him a bad guy. Quite the contrary.

And, FWIW, in the real world legal system today, it doesn't work the way you seem to think either. Again, absent something extreme like abuse, which is not the case with Kirk and David, mothers don't get to exclude fathers from the lives of their kids. Court orders aren't given to keep the fathers away, they are given to mandate that fathers get time with their kids.

 

[Ceridwen]

Another fun thought about Enterprise is if it had actually managed to go seven seasons, its final year would’ve gotten crippled by the 2007-08 writers strike.

Folks think TATV was a bad end to the show? Imagine if they had to junk a full third of the year (at least) and rush the back third of the season into production after getting back onto the stages.

I'm having flashbacks to Heroes season 2 now.

 

[Farscape One]

Another fun thought about Enterprise is if it had actually managed to go seven seasons, its final year would’ve gotten crippled by the 2007-08 writers strike.

Folks think TATV was a bad end to the show? Imagine if they had to junk a full third of the year (at least) and rush the back third of the season into production after getting back onto the stages.

We'd stil get 2 and half more seasons of ENT, which I'd be very happy with. That'd be enough to push it to over 150 episodes.

 

[The Salt Umpire]

Man, that is a low blow! You should think about what you've done!

He knows, Corporal. He knows.

 

[BillJ]

Kirk is still a deadbeat dad, regardless of whether it was Carol's choice or not. And trying to be a part of David's life would not make him a bad guy. Quite the contrary.

I look at this and just shake my head. Having grown up in a very unstable environment and with a step-brother who was trapped in such a situation, it wasn't good for him. He just became a rope in the parents tug-of-war. Life seldom ends up like we dream it does.

Carol asked Kirk to stay away, he respected the choice that she made probably because he knew in the long run it was what was best for David.

 

[cooleddie74]

"Why didn't you tell me?"

Carol had clearly left Kirk in the dark about important details of his son's life and career. It's hard to be difficult on the good Admiral when he was obeying her instructions and she's the one not giving him enough information. At the end of the day, though, her dictate and right as a mother to keep the two separated, and he followed the rules to the letter.

 

[Warp Core Breach]

There's zero problem with the Kirk-Carol-David dynamic in my head. She apparently asked him to stay away and he did. It probably played a lot better in 1982 than it would today, the concept of a woman having autonomy and asking a father to stay away was still relatively new then and was considered what we would call progressive these days. There were certainly deadbeat dads who just bugged out thoughout history, but this scene wasn't about that.

 

[BillJ]

There were certainly deadbeat dads who just bugged out thoughout history, but this scene wasn't about that.

Also, one's that hung around which ended up being detrimental to the child. There are never easy answers to these kinds of scenarios in the real world.

 

[1001001]

I look at this and just shake my head. Having grown up in a very unstable environment and with a step-brother who was trapped in such a situation, it wasn't good for him. He just became a rope in the parents tug-of-war. Life seldom ends up like we dream it does.

Carol asked Kirk to stay away, he respected the choice that she made probably because he knew in the long run it was what was best for David.

Just my personal opinion…

The child is mine. The mother asking me to “stay away” would mean nothing to me (other than we have to figure out how to co-parent).

What was it Data said?

You ask that I volunteer to give her up. I cannot. It would violate every lesson I have learned about human parenting. I have brought a new life into this world, and it is my duty, not Starfleet's, to guide her through these first difficult steps to maturity, to support her as she learns, to prepare her to be a contributing member of society. No one can relieve me from that obligation. And I cannot ignore it. I am her father.

That’s a father right there.

 

[BillJ]

The child is mine.

A child isn't property. Having grown up in this kind of dumpster fire, not all situations are created equal.

 

[cooleddie74]

Carol told Jim to let her raise their son by herself, in an environment where he wouldn't be routinely endangered aboard an exploratory spacecraft in the far reaches of the galaxy. Kirk agreed, and likely understood her points even if he didn't completely agree with them. She was exercising her maternal rights, was a civilian in a scientific field, made what in hindsight were emotionally trying but ultimately reasonable demands and Kirk chose not to fight her for custody.

 

[BillJ]

...and Kirk chose not to fight her for custody.

That would've made Kirk an ultra-dick. Sometimes you have to check your ego and do what is best for the child.

 

[cooleddie74]

We can see not getting to see David grow up hurts him (Shatner's emoting conveys that Kirk feels so empty inside that David wasn't a part of his life), but that was ultimately up to Carol - and she wanted him to stay away.

Sucks, but at the end of the day she made the right decision for both herself and David.

 

[1001001]

A child isn't property. Having grown up in this kind of dumpster fire, not all situations are created equal.

Come on, man.

Do you really think I meant that my child is my “property”?

Carol told Jim to let her raise their son by herself, in an environment where he wouldn't be routinely endangered aboard an exploratory spacecraft in the far reaches of the galaxy. Kirk agreed, and likely understood her points even if he didn't completely agree with them. She was exercising her maternal rights, was a civilian in a scientific field, made what in hindsight were emotionally trying but ultimately reasonable demands and Kirk chose not to fight her for custody.

I’m not saying Kirk should have fought for custody. I’m saying that “staying away” because she said so sounds like a way to make Kirk not seem like he abandoned David (for our benefit).

Mothers and fathers go on deployments all the time. That doesn’t mean they just stop being their parent.

Given the choice between Kirk and Data’s viewpoint, I’d side with Data every time.

 

[BillJ]

Come on, man.

Do you really think I meant that my child is my “property”?

It is the internet. While I hope that wasn't what you meant (you seem like a decent enough person), I've learned to never assume anything.

Given the choice between Kirk and Data’s viewpoint, I’d side with Data every time.

It was two radically different situations. There was no mother, no relationship that Data had that would put him in a position to have to make that choice. There aren't too many people who would stand by while the state takes their child away from them. I doubt Kirk would've stood by in that type of scenario, but he's dealing with the mother of his child.

 

[Firebird]

We'd stil get 2 and half more seasons of ENT, which I'd be very happy with. That'd be enough to push it to over 150 episodes.

Depends on how good those 2.5 seasons might have been. Quality over quantity, and all that.