What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[Nyotarules]

I always hated the idea that Sol was on the border of Alpha and Beta quadrants. In my head canon only Romulans were partly in Beta. Kind of Like how Russia's land mass is mostly in Asia, but its political, economical and cultural identity is European. All other Alpha powers (Federation, Klingons, Breen, Cardasians,...) are firmly in the alpha quadrant.

The concept of an Alpha and Beta quadrant is ridiculous, who decided those borders, do planets in the Gamma sector know they are supposed to be Gamma, they might consider their area the Alpha quadrant and how does one divide space into 4 sectors? The concept is nonsense, I wish Trek never did it. Also Sol being Sector 001 to make Earth the center of all things, a reflection of the real life Eurocentric world we live in?

 

[Onid]

The concept of an Alpha and Beta quadrant is ridiculous, who decided those borders, do planets in the Gamma sector know they are supposed to be Gamma, they might consider their area the Alpha quadrant and how does one divide space into 4 sectors? The concept is nonsense, I wish Trek never did it. Also Sol being Sector 001 to make Earth the center of all things, a reflection of the real life Eurocentric world we live in?

Eurocentric? What has Europe got to do with anything? Pray do tell, what makes it "Eurocentric" exactly, as opposed to LATAM or APAC centric?
As for the other issue, I think it is self evident that species in Gamma, Delta, Beta and even some in Alpha quadrant don't know about the classification. How could they? It is implied by Trek that it's a Federation delineation that was accepted by other neighbouring powers, since they all gravitate to each other.
Some form of mapping is a necessity. Or are we operating under the assumption that all borders are evil and a colonialist European heritage?

 

[MAGolding]

I always hated the idea that Sol was on the border of Alpha and Beta quadrants. In my head canon only Romulans were partly in Beta. Kind of Like how Russia's land mass is mostly in Asia, but its political, economical and cultural identity is European. All other Alpha powers (Federation, Klingons, Breen, Cardasians,...) are firmly in the alpha quadrant.

Is the Klingon Empire firmely in the Alpha Quadrant?

In Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country:

Stardate 9521.6, Captain's log, U.S.S. Excelsior. Hikaru Sulu commanding. After three years I've concluded my first assignment as master of this vessel, cataloguing gaseous planetary anomalies in the Beta Quadrant. We're heading home under full impulse power. I am pleased to report that ship and crew have functioned well.

So the Excelsior is travelling home from the Beta Quadrant, and might still be in the Beta Quadrant. The Excelsior is struck by a s ubspace shock wave.

VALTANE: Negative, sir. The subspace shockwave originated at bearing three two three, mark seven five. Location. It's Praxis, sir. It's a Klingon moon.
SULU: Praxis is their key energy production facility. ...Send to Klingon High Command. 'This is Excelsior, a Federation starship. We have monitored a large explosion in your sector. Do you require assistance?'
RAND: Aye sir.
SULU: Mister Valtane, any more data?
VALTANE: Yes sir. I have confirmed the location of Praxis, sir, but...
SULU: What is it?
VALTANE: I cannot confirm the existence of Praxis.
SULU: On screen! ...Magnify!
COMPUTER VOICE: Computer enhancement.
SULU: Praxis?
VALTANE: What's left of it, sir.

So Praxis exploded, and Praxis, a Klingon moon, is either a moon oorbiting the Klingon home planet, or a moon orbiting another planet in the Klingon home system, or else a moon somewhere in the Klingon Empire.

In the next scene there is a briefing at Starfleet Headquarters.

 

[Imaus]

The Klingon empire on most fanon maps is mostly in the Beta Quadrant, as it's rimward and trailing ('SouthEast' of Sol), and hugs the Romulans (or there's for some reason a Federation buffer zone in between the two) with a small bit in the Alpha Quadrant, and the Cardassian worlds they took in the Klingon-Cardassian War are firmly in the Alpha Quadrant.

 

[Onid]

So Praxis exploded, and Praxis, a Klingon moon, is either a moon oorbiting the Klingon home planet, or a moon orbiting another planet in the Klingon home system, or else a moon somewhere in the Klingon Empire.

In the next scene there is a briefing at Starfleet Headquarters.

True, that scene would imply that the explosion took place in Beta. Still, it's open enough that I can still stick with my head canon.

Also, taking into account 3D space, one can always make various interplanetary entities fit into whichever quadrant.

 

[JoseNoodles]

I don't think the TOS Enterprise and Refit Enterprise can be the same ship. There's just too much changed internally and externally to be the case. At best, maybe a few support beams or deck plates were transferred between the two so they could say it is the same ship. The proportions of the saucer and secondary hull are just too different. The different pylons and warp nacelles are probably the final straw. I mean if the engine assembly was so modular, why don't we see more variation in the nacelles of ships of the same class? I think its probably easier to refit a Klingon D7 into a K't'inga than a TOS Constitution into a Constitution refit. I think Kirk was just imprinting his fond memories of the TOS Enterprise into the refit during TMP. Hence why he still seemed so upset at the ship's destruction in The Search for Spock (well that and his son being murdered). Discovery tried to retcon the Constitution with a more "refiterized" TOS Connie, but that version doesn't solve the problem either, even if we ignore the larger scale anyways.

 

[Nyotarules]

Eurocentric? What has Europe got to do with anything? Pray do tell, what makes it "Eurocentric" exactly, as opposed to LATAM or APAC centric?
As for the other issue, I think it is self evident that species in Gamma, Delta, Beta and even some in Alpha quadrant don't know about the classification. How could they? It is implied by Trek that it's a Federation delineation that was accepted by other neighbouring powers, since they all gravitate to each other.
Some form of mapping is a necessity. Or are we operating under the assumption that all borders are evil and a colonialist European heritage?

It helps to read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote

 

[Onid]

It helps to read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote

You brought 'Eurocentricity' to discussion about Alpha and Beta quadrants in Star Trek. Even if it were true, it has no baring on the topic at hand.

 

[Nyotarules]

You brought 'Eurocentricity' to discussion about Alpha and Beta quadrants in Star Trek. Even if it were true, it has no baring on the topic at hand.

The thread title is about controversial trek opinions not 'Trek topics that Onid finds relevant'

 

[Qonundrum]

The concept of an Alpha and Beta quadrant is ridiculous, who decided those borders, do planets in the Gamma sector know they are supposed to be Gamma, they might consider their area the Alpha quadrant and how does one divide space into 4 sectors? The concept is nonsense, I wish Trek never did it. Also Sol being Sector 001 to make Earth the center of all things, a reflection of the real life Eurocentric world we live in?

From the Federation's POV, the four quadrants might make sense... at least in a 2D field and not 3D... but the casual/general audience is only going to sit there and digest so much. It's a point of relation to sell the story with, without requiring six episodes to tell what they have only enough time for in one. In real life, the show doesn't get questioned every time there's a dogfight when both are in warp - where the factors of time along with mathematical equation would mean the faster ship would quickly zoom past the other one and by a wide distance of space and degrees (X, Y, and Z.) Since it's hard to turn in space, warping back would be a problem too... but that would bore even hard core fans to sleep so they took creative liberties, and had to. A show using fully realistic circumstances would be a very daunting task to succeed with...

Even better: "Sector 001" is just being melodramatic for a commercial break. Besides, all countries look at themselves as being #001, it's not limited to any side of the planet (aka "Eurocentric").

 

[Lord Garth]

I don't think the TOS Enterprise and Refit Enterprise can be the same ship. There's just too much changed internally and externally to be the case. At best, maybe a few support beams or deck plates were transferred between the two so they could say it is the same ship. The proportions of the saucer and secondary hull are just too different. The different pylons and warp nacelles are probably the final straw. I mean if the engine assembly was so modular, why don't we see more variation in the nacelles of ships of the same class? I think its probably easier to refit a Klingon D7 into a K't'inga than a TOS Constitution into a Constitution refit. I think Kirk was just imprinting his fond memories of the TOS Enterprise into the refit during TMP. Hence why he still seemed so upset at the ship's destruction in The Search for Spock (well that and his son being murdered). Discovery tried to retcon the Constitution with a more "refiterized" TOS Connie, but that version doesn't solve the problem either, even if we ignore the larger scale anyways.

One of the things I like about the DSC Enterprise is that I can more easily imagine it becoming the TMP Enterprise.

Kirk imprinting his memories from TOS onto the TMP Enterprise is exactly why he was so sentimental about it. To quote Decker, "Admiral, this is an almost totally new Enterprise. You don't know her a tenth as well as I do."

Taking DSC out of it, the best I can figure is that maybe the TOS Enterprise was recycled into the TMP Enterprise. Like anything that wasn't circuitry was melted down and reconfigured. So that way it's sort of the same ship even though it's really not.

 

[dupersuper]

The concept of an Alpha and Beta quadrant is ridiculous, who decided those borders, do planets in the Gamma sector know they are supposed to be Gamma, they might consider their area the Alpha quadrant and how does one divide space into 4 sectors? The concept is nonsense, I wish Trek never did it. Also Sol being Sector 001 to make Earth the center of all things, a reflection of the real life Eurocentric world we live in?

Do planets on the borders with stars orbiting just a tad faster than the galactic norm cross the border often?

 

[Henoch]

Taking DSC out of it, the best I can figure is that maybe the TOS Enterprise was recycled into the TMP Enterprise. Like anything that was circuitry was melted down and reconfigured. So that way it's sort of the same ship even though it's really not.

It could be like transferring the VIN plate from one old car onto a custom built car and saying it is the same car...or dedication plaque (though I couldn't find it on the bridge of the refit Enterprise in TMP ).

 

[MAGolding]

Do planets on the boarders with stars orbiting just a tad faster than the galactic norm cross the boarder often?

the galaxy is not a single object in space like a planet is, -and some planets have atmospheres which rotate at different speeds than the planets do, and some planets have liquid cores which rotate at different speeds than the solid outer parts of the planets.

Instead, a galaxy is like a solar system, and most like the asteroid belt, but on a much vaster scale and countless many times as many individual objects. Each star in the galaxy is like a separate asteroid, orbiting the center of mass of the galaxy in its own separate orbit.

The idea that stars in the galaxy all obit in step with each other so their relative positions never change is totally flale.

The stars have velocities of tens and hundreds of kilometers per second relative to other stars. It is the only the incredible vastness of space which makes the process of faster stars orvertaking and passsing slower stars as they orbit take many millennia. .

Here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...own_dwarfs#Distant_future_and_past_encounters

is a link to a list of stars which are cacclulated to have passed with 5 light years of the Sun within the last 3 millin years, with the dates of their closest encoutners and their present distances, and also stars which are predicted to pass within 5 light years of the Sun within the next 3 million years.

This table shows that stars do not keep the same directions and distances relative to each other but are constantly changing their relative positions.

So if the vertical plane separating the Alpha and the Beta quadrants goes through the center of the Sun, it will move as the Sun orbits the center of the galaxy. Stars moving in the same direction as the sun,behing it but faster than the Sun and the quadrant border will eventually pass from one quadrant to the next, while stars travelling ahead of the Sun but slower than the Sun will eventually be passed by the quadrant border.

If teh quadrant borders don't move, then stars will pass from one quadrant to another even more frequently.

 

[fireproof78]

I would imagine that systems that align with a particular power would remain regardless of their star's wanderings.

 

[JoseNoodles]

One of the things I like about the DSC Enterprise is that I can more easily imagine it becoming the TMP Enterprise.

Kirk imprinting his memories from TOS onto the TMP Enterprise is exactly why he was so sentimental about it. To quote Decker, "Admiral, this is an almost totally new Enterprise. You don't know her a tenth as well as I do."

Taking DSC out of it, the best I can figure is that maybe the TOS Enterprise was recycled into the TMP Enterprise. Like anything that wasn't circuitry was melted down and reconfigured. So that way it's sort of the same ship even though it's really not.

I get what they were going for with the Discoprise, but even then the neck seems too slanted compared to the refit, and the pylons don't seem slanted enough.

I like your suggestion about materials from the old ship being recycled for the new one, but it still takes some mental kung-fu to say the new ship is the same ship its made from.

Interestingly, I don't know if there are any shots of the Refit Enterprise's dedication plaque. I don't know if it even had one.

 

[Maurice]

Interestingly, I don't know if there are any shots of the Refit Enterprise's dedication plaque. I don't know if it even had one.

No such thing appears in any of the movies until TNG came around and they reintroduced them.

 

[Paul755]

The concept of an Alpha and Beta quadrant is ridiculous, who decided those borders, do planets in the Gamma sector know they are supposed to be Gamma, they might consider their area the Alpha quadrant and how does one divide space into 4 sectors? The concept is nonsense, I wish Trek never did it. Also Sol being Sector 001 to make Earth the center of all things, a reflection of the real life Eurocentric world we live in?

I always thought it was weird that Gamma and Delta quadrant species referred to themselves as being from the Gamma and Delta quadrant. Wouldn’t they consider themselves the Alpha quadrant?

One of the things I like about the DSC Enterprise is that I can more easily imagine it becoming the TMP Enterprise.

Kirk imprinting his memories from TOS onto the TMP Enterprise is exactly why he was so sentimental about it. To quote Decker, "Admiral, this is an almost totally new Enterprise. You don't know her a tenth as well as I do."

Taking DSC out of it, the best I can figure is that maybe the TOS Enterprise was recycled into the TMP Enterprise. Like anything that wasn't circuitry was melted down and reconfigured. So that way it's sort of the same ship even though it's really not.

The Discoprise was designed to look more like the refit though.

YMMV but I can buy that the original Enterprise and refit are the same, it helps explain why the same basic design/layout is used.

Its the 18 month design/refit timeframe that seems off. Seems like a deck by deck refit like that would take longer.

 

[Lord Garth]

Its the 18 month design/refit timeframe that seems off. Seems like a deck by deck refit like that would take longer.

Now that you mention this: If Kirk hasn't been in command for two-and-half years, there's a whole year unaccounted for. I think they could've spent the first year gutting the Enterprise and then the next year-and-a-half rebuilding it.

The refitted Enterprise could basically be like a house that was flipped. I live across from a house that was flipped. So I got to see the entire process. While removing everything inside, they also expanded the framework of the house before rebuilding inside.

I don't know if 2.5 years refitting the Enterprise on that scale makes much more sense than 1.5, but it's something.

 

[Paul755]

2.5 years seems more reasonable to me. That extra (lost) year makes a huge difference.