What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[Kamen Rider Blade]

That's the only thing there is to take. They own it. They make the rules.

Rules can be changed, it has been changed in the past.
It was 1x Timeline at one point, then the Kelvin-verse happened and there were 2x Timelines.

With Parallels & Lower Decks, we get to visit multiple Parallel Realities as well across the Multiverse.
It doesn't change the fact that things have diverged as well given what we've seen.

That episode chances nothing. It points out a single inconsistency among the 100's that no doubt exists across almost 60 years of Trek. An inconsistency that SNW didn't even create. The Eugenics Wars have been a 21st century conflict since the first episode of TNG in 1987.

Except when the Eugenics War wasn't and it was a 20th century conflict between 1992-1996 thanks to TOS.
It only shifted to the 21st century thanks to the events of (SNW: "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow").
Even Memory Alpha acknowledges the change to the 21st century as such due to SNW.

If we were to use this logic, there would be a new timeline that we follow every time that time travel has happened in Trek.

Sounds about right.

That is not what we are presented in the franchise. When characters come back from the past, they almost always return to their present timeline as if nothing happened.

They go back to their branch on the timeline, doesn't mean the other new timeline appearing didn't happen.
These events aren't mutually exclusive, both can be true.

Disagree. The connection between the SNW characters and their older versions in TOS is one of the best things about SNW.

I 100% concur. I love the connections between the older TOS version & the SNW versions as well.

It helps to expand the characters that we know and love and make them far more interesting and dynamic.

You're absolutely correct!

For characters like Uhura, Spock, Chapel, Number One, Pike, etc Strange New Worlds is the best thing to ever happen to those characters.

I agree.

Except when it usually isn't.

The entire TNG episodes of "Parallels" & the recent LD episode confirms that the Multiverse is constantly happening.
You have no control over that, it just happens.
Whether or not we see it or live it, that's another story.

Time Travel Shenanigans have happened in every series. It's hardly unique to SNW.

True. But it doesn't hurt to place certain series on different Timeline branches.
It doesn't hurt the canonicity of the series or the validity as well.

There is only conflict if people choose to make it an issue. Otherwise, a little creative thinking is usually more than enough to correct any issues that might arise.

That's my entire point, new timelines literally solve basic contradicting facts from various series.

At the end of the day, you can accept the company line, I can choose to disagree.

We're both equally happy.

That's why it's a controversial issue and we're all allowed to have different opinions.

Spoiler: Anti-Trekker - Star Trek: The Triple Timeline Theory Redux

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Some of the Trek fanbase is on 3x Timelines as "Canon".

Spoiler: The PopCast - Explaining All THREE Star Trek Timelines... It's Official Now!

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I've moved onto 4x Timelines, but that's a minor squabble in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Citiprime]

That's the only thing there is to take. They own it. They make the rules.

I saw a piece last night about how Elon Musk is upset that people still call X by its original name of Twitter. And how it's proof that the people who own things don't dictate how those things are interpreted and perceived once it's out in the world.

People who live in Chicago still call the "Willis Tower" by its old name of the "Sears Tower," and no matter what the people with the naming rights may want it called, the people who actually live in Chicago still call it the Sears Tower even after years and years of it not being that.

UNO and Monopoly have been trying to tell people the "correct" rules for the game for years, but people will play it any way they want.

People still call image gifs in the "incorrect" way, if we only consider the pronunciation the creator intended (i.e., "jif").

The public and audience are under no obligation to "take things" because of authorial intent. Star Wars fans still believed "Han Shot First" no matter how many edits that George Lucas did to Star Wars: A New Hope trying to prove he didn't.

We could take the "Official Company Line" for what it is, but that was also before SNW aired that time travel episode in Canada.

But the evidence presented logically concludes in more than 2x Time Lines, especially given the totality of the franchise and the various events / idiosyncracies that don't line up with new facts.

It doesn't hurt the Kurtzman-verse to have it's own Time Line or 2x new branching Time Lines from the older eras.

Star Trek's take on Time Travel is all about Time Lines & Branching off from them.

Both are equally valid additions to the canon of Star Trek & equally acceptable & enjoyable depending on the viewers taste.

I personally have no issues with that, especially given the events of the Time Travel shenanigans that happened in SNW.

Then all canon is preserved w/o conflict from newer series & newer facts that might contradict old canon.

I think whether or not you get split timelines or retcons from "the powers that be" in the future is really dependent on who comes after Alex Kurtzman, the current production team, and the executives in charge of Star Trek in whatever new form of Paramount which emerges once its financial issues work themselves out.

Any new executive producer/showrunner that's eventually brought in to oversee the property is going to have to make a choice about whether or not they want to continue with what's been done, be tied to story aspects like "The Burn" and other choices, or if they'll push the Paramount+ shows over into their own universe and pick and choose material they'll proceed from, or just reboot the entire damn thing.

 

[1001001]

There are two timelines.

Everything else is nonsense.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I think whether or not you get split timelines or retcons from "the powers that be" in the future is really dependent on who comes after Alex Kurtzman, the current production team, and the executives in charge of Star Trek in whatever new form of Paramount which emerges once its financial issues work themselves out.

True, while they will have their own stance, the fans will have their own interpretations.

Any new executive producer/showrunner that's eventually brought in to oversee the property is going to have to make a choice about whether or not they want to continue with what's been done, be tied to story aspects like "The Burn" and other choices, or if they'll push the Paramount+ shows over into their own universe and pick and choose material they'll proceed from, or just reboot the entire damn thing.

Yeah, they have the right to do what they want with it obviously, but so do fans interpretations of it based on their choices.

If they work with the fandom, it could come out to be better end result since we can be inclusive of all the previous Trek works, even the Beta Canon stuff and just call them all "Off-shoot Time-Lines".
STO could be it's own timeline.
The Novels can be their own off-shoot timelines.

Everybody can be happy, you don't have to worry about contradictions from new content violating old content since the Multiverse exists and we can see different things happening across different timelines.

 

[Citiprime]

There are two timelines.

Everything else is nonsense.

Tell that to Wesley Crusher and his computer display.

 

[HotRod]

It only shifted to the 21st century thanks to the events of (SNW: "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow").

TOS established that the Eugenics War was "the last of the world wars." Making it World War III. From TNG on, World War III was clearly and consistently depicted as a mid 21st century conflict. We've also seen multiple depictions of late 20th/ early 21st century Earth that show zero signs of global conflict. Strange New Worlds simply followed what has been more firmly established.

The Eugenics Wars / World War III is a 21st century conflict.

Even Memory Alpha acknowledges the change to the 21st century as such due to SNW.

They're wrong.

 

[1001001]

Tell that to Wesley Crusher and his computer display.

What is that, a video game?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

TOS established that the Eugenics War was "the last of the world wars." Making it World War III. From TNG on, World War III was clearly and consistently depicted as a mid 21st century conflict.

You can go argue with them, but it doesn't dispute the fact that in TOS episode "Space Seed", this happened:

Spock identifies the vessel from its outer hull markings as the SS Botany Bay, but finds no registry of the ship in the computer library; however, he points out that records of the era from which the ship was launched are fragmentary, as the 1990s was the era of the Eugenics Wars, a "strange and violent period in your history" as Spock puts it. Faint life signs are detected on board, and Kirk has the ship go to red alert as it closes in on the mysterious vessel to investigate.

Do you want to contradict TOS Spock?

We've also seen multiple depictions of late 20th/ early 21st century Earth that show zero signs of global conflict.

Just because one part of the world is at war, doesn't mean the other parts of it aren't at peace.
We're living through that right now IRL.
But that's beyond the point.

Strange New Worlds simply followed what has been more firmly established.

The Eugenics Wars / World War III is a 21st century conflict.

WW3 was considered a seperate conflict from the Eugenics War & it takes place in the 21st century.

World War III was the last of Earth's three world wars, lasting from approximately 2026 to 2053

They're wrong.

Except they're not, but you can go argue with them if you want.

Try to counter act previous history & TV shows.

 

[HotRod]

You can go argue with them, but it doesn't dispute the fact that in TOS episode "Space Seed", this happened:

TOS said a lot of things that were retconned or changed over the years it's amazing what things fans will pick and choose to ignore.

WW3 was considered a seperate conflict from the Eugenics War & it takes place in the 21st century.

And yet TOS stated that it was the last of the world wars, when we know that World War 3 happened in the 21st century. We also have further evidence presented by Strange New Worlds, a officially prime timeline production, that established that the Eugenics Wars and WW3 were the same conflict.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

TOS said a lot of things that were retconned or changed over the years it's amazing what things fans will pick and choose to ignore.

I know, I'm dealing with him right now.

And yet TOS stated that it was the last of the world wars, when we know that World War 3 happened in the 21st century.

Yes WW3 was the last of the World Wars, it did happen in the 21st century.

It's not the same as the Eugenics Wars.

We also have further evidence presented by Strange New Worlds, a officially prime timeline production, that established that the Eugenics Wars and WW3 were the same conflict.

SNW also established that Romulans were mucking about with time and that the Eugenics Wars was originally supposed to happen in the 1990's.

The Romulan Temporal Agent Sera literally traveled to 1992 to assasinate Khan, but due to Temporal Cold Wars & multiple incursions, Khan wasn't born yet.

She got trapped on Earth for 30 years.

So Khan was supposed to be born earlier, but due to time mucking about, he's born MUCH later.

It doesn't hurt to have multiple timelines my dude.

You're the only one who is hard defending the company stance and not looking at the evidence given.

But hey, you do you.

We can both co-exist peacefully and have different opinions.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes WW3 was the last of the World Wars, it did happen in the 21st century.

It's not the same as the Eugenics Wars.

The dialog doesn't allow this. It just is changed by TNG.

 

[HotRod]

It's not the same as the Eugenics Wars.

So..... the idea that the Eugenics Wars were in the 90's is a hard fact because it was stated in TOS and WoK...

BUT!

The Eugenics Wars being part of World War 3 isn’t a fact, dispite being stated in TOS, and SNW.

Nevermind all the other things like being shown a peaceful 90's and early 2000's on multiple occasions by various shows. Nevermind that Archer had a great grandfather who fought in the Eugenics Wars that point to it being in the 21st century.

TOS has a whole slew of things shown or mentioned throughout it's 3 seasons that don't line up with what came after. Is James R. Kirk another timeline? Is there a different timeline where a women can be a captain? Sometimes you just need to accept that some shit doesn't line up. It doesn't mean it's a new timeline, it means it's a TV show where some writer either forgot something or thought he had a better idea.

Further going into the different timeline debate, there's also the various connections between Discovery and Strange New Worlds that connect them with older shows. Things like directly lifting footage from The Cage, Unification, The Chase, etc. Nevermind Lower Decks, a practical love letter to Berman-era Trek, having characters appear on SNW and not notice a single thing out of place.

The Romulan Temporal Agent Sera literally traveled to 1992 to assasinate Khan, but due to Temporal Cold Wars & multiple incursions, Khan wasn't born yet.

Yeah, it was a fun little nod to one of the silly little inconsistencies in the franchise. That doesn't mean it negates the mountain of things that imply the Eugenics Wars to be part of WWIII AND a 21st century conflict.

Hell, if you want to go the route of different timeline, it makes a hell of a lot more sense for TOS to be a different timeline from the rest of the franchise. I'm not saying that's the case, because it's not. But if we're talking about removing a series due to inconsistencies, it would be series that lines up the least with everything else.

Or, you just accept it's all a TV show, and sometimes shit doesn't line up 100% because it's a fictionalized science fiction series and not a historical documentary.

 

[Citiprime]

Here's my thing about this kind of discussion, which for years has always seemed to go in circles, and almost always leaves everyone back where they started, still interpreting it whatever way they want in the end. The thing that's never made sense to me when looking at the perspective of people who INSIST it's all the same continuity, is I get the sense they feel agreeing to it not being the same continuity would be some kind of slight on the material.

But just for the sake of argument ... let's for a second say they're all separate.

That we pretend for a moment the Paramount+ shows are over in their own playbox doing their own thing, and the pre-Paramount+ stuff exists as its own thing too. But they're separate things that aren't really in the same continuity.

What would be so bad about that? What would it change?

They would all still be Star Trek. And all of the continuities could be appreciated for what they are, they could be analyzed for differences in what each are trying to say with the same story elements, the uniqueness each writer and creator brought to the material, and they could create their own visions and distinctiveness where the Paramount+ shows like Strange New Worlds would be free to go in ANY direction it wanted in exploring the characters and setting without worrying about canon.

I think the people who insist it's all connected in some cohesive Prime Timeline continuity (and this includes Kurtzman, Goldsman and everyone at Paramount that insists on this as the official position) actually hurts the perception of these shows in some ways. Because instead of people judging them for what they are, the story they're trying to tell, and how well they do that on their own terms, we instantly get bogged down in arguments of: "Well, how in the hell does that fit with what happened in Voyager?"

If DC Comics fanboys can accept multiple versions of Batman and the Joker with different continuities, why can't Star Trek fans look at the differences between TOS, in both story and aesthetics, and the changes made within Discovery and Strange New Worlds, as being the equivalent of Robert Pattinson's Batman and Ben Affleck's Batman? Instead of trying to making all of this fit together like a busted jigsaw puzzle whose pieces don't really fit together, people could enjoy each for what they are without having these arguments.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

So..... the idea that the Eugenics Wars were in the 90's is a hard fact because it was stated in TOS and WoK...

BUT!

The Eugenics Wars being part of World War 3 isn’t a fact, dispite being stated in TOS, and SNW.

Both could be true, in a fashion.

Just like WW2 has many historical interpretations as to what is WW2 & what are the precursors that lead into WW2.
WW3 could have a similar interpretation.

The updated description that Pike gives in Strange New Worlds that the Second Civil War, Eugenics War, and World War III are sometimes viewed by historians as one long escalating conflict (or series of related conflicts) may parallel similar discussions about when World War II began: from an American-European perspective it began when Germany invaded Poland in 1939, but in the Asia front the "Second Sino-Japanese War" which began in 1937 is seen as the start of one continuous war through 1945. Moreover, there were earlier related conflicts seen as a prelude to the main war: the Spanish Civil War from 1936 - 1939, the Italian invasion of Ethiopia in 1935, the Japanese invasion of Manchuria in 1931, etc.

Nevermind all the other things like being shown a peaceful 90's and early 2000's on multiple occasions by various shows.

We're living a peaceful life right now.

But war is raging in Ukraine as we speak.

Could the be considered a prelude to WW3 in the future should China decide to invade Taiwan and spark American & Japanese intervention down the line?
Who knows.

There are many wars that are on-going as we speak.
The West Sahara region of Africa is looking like hostilities are reinvigorating as we speak.
Syria is getting crazier.

From a historians PoV, those could be viewed as "Proxy Wars".

But they could also be recontextualized as Pre-Ludes to a future WW3 based on what happens down the line.

Yet the vast majority of Earth is peaceful.

All because we only see certain parts of the 90's & 2000's as peaceful, doesn't mean the War isn't raging on the other side of the planet.

The Storyline just happened to focus on a different part of the world when they time traveled back.

Nevermind that Archer had a great grandfather who fought in the Eugenics Wars that point to it being in the 21st century.

That could also be very true.

TOS has a whole slew of things shown or mentioned throughout it's 3 seasons that don't line up with what came after.

I'm sure it has.

Kirk & Crew found the Romulan Cloaking technology to be brand new.

Yet we see in ST:ENT that Klingons & Romulans have Cloaking Tech that happens almost a century earlier.

Spock didn't have a Adopted Human Sister, yet now we do, because of time travel.
In the other timeline, she was killed as a child due to incident with a wild animal.
in the DISCO timeline, she's saved and grows up to be a adult whose very important to StarFleet history.

Is James R. Kirk another timeline?

That could very much be true.

Is there a different timeline where a women can be a captain?

We already see that with Voyager & in TNG.

Sometimes you just need to accept that some shit doesn't line up. It doesn't mean it's a new timeline, it means it's a TV show where some writer either forgot something or thought he had a better idea.

That's the easy answer, but given what we know about Time Travel & Parallel Realities along with the Multi-Verse.
All Answers can be true.

Further going into the different timeline debate, there's also the various connections between Discovery and Strange New Worlds that connect them with older shows. Things like directly lifting footage from The Cage, Unification, The Chase, etc. Nevermind Lower Decks, a practical love letter to Berman-era Trek, having characters appear on SNW and not notice a single thing out of place.

Yup, Time Travel is funny like that.

Yeah, it was a fun little nod to one of the silly little inconsistencies in the franchise. That doesn't mean it negates the mountain of things that imply the Eugenics Wars to be part of WWIII AND a 21st century conflict.

It could be when it's a 3rd or 4th timeline where the Eugenics War starts later than what happened in TOS.

Why else would the Romulan Agent go back in time to kill Khan in the 1990's to change history, only to find out that Khan isn't even alive because of Temporal War shenanigans.

Hell, if you want to go the route of different timeline, it makes a hell of a lot more sense for TOS to be a different timeline from the rest of the franchise.

Good Idea! I like your thinking!
That could be one of the original Time Line branches that many people forgot about.
It could be the original branch in the timeline that TNG inevitably made some contradictions with.

I'm not saying that's the case, because it's not. But if we're talking about removing a series due to inconsistencies, it would be series that lines up the least with everything else.

Or, you just accept it's all a TV show, and sometimes shit doesn't line up 100% because it's a fictionalized science fiction series and not a historical documentary.

According to ST:PIC Production Designer David Blass, Star Trek is more of a "Historical Show", Not Fantasy.

And given how Time Travel makes a mess of everything, we can just accept the multiple Time Lines as "All Canon" and everything "Co-Exists".

The Kelvin-verse doesn't erase everything that comes before.
The Creators have stated as such since the origins of the Kelvin-verse started from our timeline.

The new Time-Lines don't erase what came before, they're a Branching Time-Line as well.

It doesn't hurt things to have more than 2 Time-Lines.

Just like when Picard stated "There are 4 Lights".

IMO, there are "4x Prime Time Lines" at this moment in time.
It doesn't negate what happened previously.
It just shoved the events off into it's own region in the time line.

Everybody gets to be happy and contradictions are solved due to Time Travel.

 

[Tallguy]

But how many timelines are in The Odd Couple? There's the timeline where Oscar and Felix meet in the army. The timeline where they meet in court. And of course the timeline where they were childhood friends.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Even Memory Alpha acknowledges the change to the 21st century as such due to SNW.

So? It's a fan site.

 

[Daedalus]

Here's my thing about this kind of discussion, which for years has always seemed to go in circles, and almost always leaves everyone back where they started, still interpreting it whatever way they want in the end. The thing that's never made sense to me when looking at the perspective of people who INSIST it's all the same continuity, is I get the sense they feel agreeing to it not being the same continuity would be some kind of slight on the material.

But just for the sake of argument ... let's for a second say they're all separate.

That we pretend for a moment the Paramount+ shows are over in their own playbox doing their own thing, and the pre-Paramount+ stuff exists as its own thing too. But they're separate things that aren't really in the same continuity.

What would be so bad about that? What would it change?

They would all still be Star Trek. And all of the continuities could be appreciated for what they are, they could be analyzed for differences in what each are trying to say with the same story elements, the uniqueness each writer and creator brought to the material, and they could create their own visions and distinctiveness where the Paramount+ shows like Strange New Worlds would be free to go in ANY direction it wanted in exploring the characters and setting without worrying about canon.

I think the people who insist it's all connected in some cohesive Prime Timeline continuity (and this includes Kurtzman, Goldsman and everyone at Paramount that insists on this as the official position) actually hurts the perception of these shows in some ways. Because instead of people judging them for what they are, the story they're trying to tell, and how well they do that on their own terms, we instantly get bogged down in arguments of: "Well, how in the hell does that fit with what happened in Voyager?"

If DC Comics fanboys can accept multiple versions of Batman and the Joker with different continuities, why can't Star Trek fans look at the differences between TOS, in both story and aesthetics, and the changes made within Discovery and Strange New Worlds, as being the equivalent of Robert Pattinson's Batman and Ben Affleck's Batman? Instead of trying to making all of this fit together like a busted jigsaw puzzle whose pieces don't really fit together, people could enjoy each for what they are without having these arguments.

This I can definitely agree with. Perhaps as fans, we should acknowledge that we're too headstrong to care what other people think and should enjoy a show in our own way. Debating just wastes hours of life we can't get back.

This is why I'm ok with it all being the same timeline, same timeline with occasional changes, or multiple timelines with similar events happening in each. Knock yourselves out, it's your tv screen.

For me, as it stands, it's the same timeline and (jebus protect me) even visually. Yep, I do love visual coherence during the fictional ages of a tv show and I don't care too much for BtS production shenanigans or updating. I never considered that stuff when I was a kid, and I don't know if it matters that much to me now.

So the Enterprise looks like it does in 2259 because that's just how it looked in 2259. One day it will look like it does in 2266 because that's how it looked in 2266. Apply it to everything and add a little time travel now and then, and that's enough for me.

I think I'm too set in my ways to worry.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

So? It's a fan site.

One that is also used by the Trek Writing Staff since it contains so much data.

 

[Nerys Myk]

One that is also used by the Trek Writing Staff since it contains so much data.

Still a fan site. Not authoritative or official.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Still a fan site. Not authoritative or official.

Then what would you call "Authoritative or Official"?