::Pulls Phaser on your fencing foil::How dare you speak poorly of Sir Gonkington III! Have at thee!
What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?
- Thread starter Amasov
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The only thing about making AI more ubiquitous, I think you would need some sort of law or Geneva Conventions agreements as to all the major powers agreeing not to use it as a weapon or recognizing their personhood where you couldn't just create drones willy nilly. It would be an interesting story as to how the Federation adapts to AI communities asserting their rights.
Otherwise, wouldn't one or all of the major powers replicate androids/robots to be foot soldiers in the same way the Dominion bred Jem'Hadar?
I always thought an interesting story idea might be Juratti's voluntary Borg community at the end of Picard season 2. After the fear the Borg has inspired for decades, what if people across the Federation started joining her Borg community voluntarily? Would people respect that decision? Or would they see it as some form of personal issue/problem that isn't rational and goes against the same naturalism that prohibits genetic engineering?
I can reason that the Klingons might find it a "dishonorable" way to fight wars, sending in robots to do the dirty work. The Romulans had a secret society holding them back from going that direction. And the ethical implications probably would prohibit the Federation from going in that direction (although they were arguably using the Soong-based androids on Mars as slaves).
Plus, if you have ubiquitous AI everywhere, and if you're going to send an away team to a dangerous environment, why would you ever send a biological lifeform if you can use droids?
Also, if ships have holo-emitters throughout their decks, I would think you could design a holoprogram to repel any kind of boarding party. Basically, either spawn holograms to confront any invasion force, or replicate phaser turrets to hit anything that wasn't supposed to be there.
Otherwise, wouldn't one or all of the major powers replicate androids/robots to be foot soldiers in the same way the Dominion bred Jem'Hadar?
I always thought an interesting story idea might be Juratti's voluntary Borg community at the end of Picard season 2. After the fear the Borg has inspired for decades, what if people across the Federation started joining her Borg community voluntarily? Would people respect that decision? Or would they see it as some form of personal issue/problem that isn't rational and goes against the same naturalism that prohibits genetic engineering?
I can reason that the Klingons might find it a "dishonorable" way to fight wars, sending in robots to do the dirty work. The Romulans had a secret society holding them back from going that direction. And the ethical implications probably would prohibit the Federation from going in that direction (although they were arguably using the Soong-based androids on Mars as slaves).
Plus, if you have ubiquitous AI everywhere, and if you're going to send an away team to a dangerous environment, why would you ever send a biological lifeform if you can use droids?
Also, if ships have holo-emitters throughout their decks, I would think you could design a holoprogram to repel any kind of boarding party. Basically, either spawn holograms to confront any invasion force, or replicate phaser turrets to hit anything that wasn't supposed to be there.
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The Jurati Nice-Borg was utterly, utterly ridiculous to me. It’s not often I think Trek “jumped the shark” but that moment it definitely did. I mean, who in their right mind would want to become a cyborg zombie? Did they offer free dental care and a generous pension plan? The Borg were always depicted as something unfathomably horrendous, and to be assimilated a fate worse than death (at least until latter day Voyager when it didn’t seem much more than cosplay). Who exactly would be lining up to get their body parts amputated and cybernetic implants?
People already line up for cybernetic implants and voluntary body modifications that - to you or me - can easily seem like mutilation. The core horror of assimilation is the forced loss of your own identity, not the implants.
I'm sure there are people on Earth right now who'd be lining up to be part of a cyborg hive mind and get robot arms if that was an option. It's not what most people would want, but then most people wouldn't want to join Starfleet and risk dying a pointless death because the nebula they were scanning turned out to be a starship-eating monster either.
As long as all Cybernetic Parts are "Optional" & A-La-Carte, I think you'll have people lining up to be Assimilated as long as you're
1) Not forced into a Hive MInd
2) Not have your (thoughts/memory) (invaded/scanned) by others w/o permission.
3) Not forced to use your Brain to do Server / Collective processing that you don't want to do.
4) Have choice into what Cybernetic Implants they take
Then you'll have people lining up to be assimilated.
If they need advanced Server Cluster Processing via Organic Brains, just Mass Produce via artificial Genetic Creation of dedicated Brains and have them in a Advanced Server Farm / Rack.
I know that sounds scary, but a far better option then forcing your own brain to become part of the Server Farm that is the "Borg Hive Mind".
The Dominion can mass grow Jem'Hadar in weeks.
Imagine if you take that Genetic Engineering technology and mass grow just the Brain Portion and have the Brains live in Server Racks.
That can give you the advanced Neural Gel Pack like Processing Speeds, but faster that the Borg so desires along with Linear Numerical Computing Power that traditional PC's can do.
Exactly why I qualified it with “people in their right minds”
No way people can think they still look “hot” with the Borg corpse skin, laser robot eye, mechanical hand, etc. unless they’re extremely far gone in the mind.Aren’t these the core aspects of what the Borg are, though? If you remove such things are they even still Borg? Dang,that sounds grandly philosophical. Picard with be frothing at the mouth.
Seven of Nine is a Borg Human Hybrid that once freed from the collective and given time to grow a individual personality under Captain Janeway, managed to flourish.
- Her thoughts are back to being private, and of her own free will
- She had most of her Cybernetic Attachments removed, her limbs & digits are back to a normal count for her species (Human)
- She doesn't do any extra processing
- She doesn't need any extra Cybernetic Implants other than what she already has
She's still considered part Borg or a person that is "Freed from the Borg".
Yet, her capabilities vastly exceed most other Humans in every measure / metric you can test.
That's the whole point of the Jurati Borg, to create a new type of Collective, one that is freed from the enslavement & trauma caused by the traditional Borg Hive Mind Enslavement.
You saw how creative / amazing "Seven of Nine" can be, imagine if every member had her creativity / capability.
The best parts of a living being & cybernetically enhanced being.
If you ever watched "Ghost in the Shell" Anime or read the Manga and saw what people can do when they had a Cyborg Brain / Body, it's quite amazing.
Seven of Nine is a embodiment of what it means to be a Cyborg.
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Who still considers her a Borg and are they bigoted for doing so?
I'm not so sure. Spock's mother, Amanda, chose to live a Vulcan way of life with a man that could never really express his emotions in something no current marriage therapist would call a healthy relationship. In a galaxy with billions upon billions of people, I can see a myriad of lifestyle choices having a certain appeal, even if they may not make sense to us.Exactly why I qualified it with “people in their right minds”
Also, I work in healthcare and there's a lot of Marvel fans where I work. We once debated whether if the technology for Bucky Barnes/The Winter Soldier's cybernetic arm existed, would people amputate their healthy arms if they could have an arm capable of that kind of strength, speed, dexterity, and reaction time? And would it be ethical or rational to cut off a perfectly fine arm to have a robot one? Or to cut off someone's legs if they could have cybernetic prosthetics that allowed better athleticism?
I would bet dollars to donuts there would be a HUGE market of people who would line up to do it.
A voluntary Borg community would in theory offer a level of immortality too. Your thoughts and memories would become part of a collective, live on long after your physical form dies, and possibly transcend it to become something different.
As long as people entered into it willingly, and understood what they were getting into, that would have a certain appeal whether here in the 21st century or in the 25th century.
A long time ago, I remember an online argument about the philosophy of Star Trek which revolved around that if at the core of Star Trek is an examination of what it means to be human, Roddenberry and the franchise elevates secular humanist values.
However, it also tends to take a very dim view of the ideas surrounding transhumanism.
That's seen in how the show views any kind of "shortcut" that tries to perfect the human form, whether through genetic engineering or cybernetics. The most significant form of AI within the entire lore of Star Trek is a character who endeavours to be "more human."
I would argue the core ethos of Star Trek wants a humanity that gets better through social enlightenment, rather than being made better through cybernetics or genetic engineering.
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Didn't you watch ST:VOY?
Many Delta Quadrant alien species who encountered her on the USS Voyager still considered her "Part Borg".
But they had a hard time letting go of past conceptions of the Borg due to all the terrible things that happened when their species encountered "The Borg".
e.g. Arturis.
You mean, trying to be good people and follow the basic "Golden Rule"?
But it also had eps where letting entire species die was the "Enlightened Solution" due to the Dogmatic adherence to the "Prime Directive" & "Non-Interference".
So sorry, if I don't always agree with their solution and views on Trans-Humanism if their core tenent let entire species get wiped out because of some "Prime Directive".
Being "More Human" isn't about what kind of body / hardware you have attached.
It's more about how you are as a person, how you interact with society and those around you.
The Genetic Engineering, Cybernetics, AI are all rather the "SuperFicial" aspects compared to the morality plays that we see.
Nothing wrong with "Social Enlightment", but Cybernetics & Genetic Engineering are seperate subjects.
Not directly related to "Social Enlightment".
They who have all the gold make the rules?
I think Section 31 would prefer to see themselves as "The Greater Good" by doing anything necessary to get the job done, stuff that the UFP has no stomach for.
Are you being serious?
You must know the "Golden Rule"
Partly.
I'm sure they would.
Do you think the UFP / StarFleet would have a chance of winning the Dominion War if they didn't infect the Founders with the Morphogenic Virus through Odo?
Sure, I think it was possible. They'd retaken the wormhole, wiped out a massive Dominion fleet, and fought their way all the way to Cardassia. It's also possible that Odo could've convinced the Female Changeling to surrender even without offering a cure.
Plus the virus proved to the Changelings that the solids really are a huge threat to them, nearly inflicted an unrestrained Jem'Hadar army onto the Alpha Quadrant with no goal other than destruction, and it ended up causing further problems down the line when the Changeling test subjects got their revenge. So it's possible we didn't get the happiest ending to the war.
Or we might have gotten the best ending compared to other timelines and outcomes.
Sure, there's no way to know.
There's an argument to be made that Star Trek approaches humanity as the ideal.
I'm not saying I totally agree with it, but I can see where the argument is coming from. You're right, it not about the body or hardware, but that "humanity" (in the broad strokes of the meaning of the word) is the standard by which "normal" proceeds from. And any aberrations to that form (whether through genetic engineering or cybernetics) diminishes it. For example, in his path to be more human, Data sees the acquisition of human emotions (no matter how erratic they can be) as a step in that path, instead of accepting his own android nature as an extension of what it means to be human.
The Starfleet characters, and the Federation they represent, are paragons of a society that has conquered modern day evils, and all of the cultures and species they encounter are aspects of our society that are taken to extremes. So, in the setting, humanity are the witness/observers of the human condition from an ideal perspective.
It's notable that the Founder threat of infiltration and terrorism becomes less and less a problem in the later seasons of DS9. The Section 31 virus arguably put a stop to that threat.
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