What are the motivations of the New Kirk as Starfleet Officer?

[Captain Mike]

I don't think the Federation has ever been truly utopian. But I'd still say that nuKirk reflects a more enlightened value system than many in life adhere to today. He obviously wants to improve himself -- but to do that, he doesn't pursue wealth, he pursues public service in Starfleet, he tries to do something as meaningful as his father's saving the crew of the Kelvin. He risks his standing in Starfleet (by challenging its authority structures when he thinks they're making horrible mistakes) and his life numerous times to save the people of Vulcan and Earth and to save his fellow officers.

And when Nero is defeated and in need of rescue from a black hole of his own creation at the end, he offers Nero mercy and assistance -- only turning his guns on Nero when Nero rejects his assistance and declares his continued intention to kill as many Federates as possible, necessitating that his ship be destroyed so as to prevent it from harming anyone else on the other side of that black hole if it should happen to survive a trip through a black hole yet again, as it did when it crossed over from the Prime Universe to the Nu Universe.

WHEN did he become a scientist during the film to come to that conclusionon just how Red Matter works?...Let alone a Black Hole?...

NuKirk may not be as pompous and stately, may be a little rougher and more informal, more working class, but his behavior still reflects a belief in an enlightened, egalitarian value system -- even if he's still maturing as a person.

NO he is more arrogant and self-absorbed,...something that changed during the "meld" with REAL Spock....but not totally.

The REAL Kirk had a moments in his life that made him who he was. And that is that he could overcome adversity by working hard in whatever he set as his goal, for success. Unlike ST2009's where he was dumbed down so todays kids which are mostly slackers, and to put it mildy lazy-asses, could get into the character.

Wow. Stereotyping, ageism, and elitism all in one sentence. Very prejudiced. Not very in-keeping with Star Trek's value system.

So glad you are a master in Star Treks value system.

His motivation? I have no clue.

Then you weren't paying attention.

Love that response from the PRO 2009 faction....

 

[Sci]

I don't think the Federation has ever been truly utopian. But I'd still say that nuKirk reflects a more enlightened value system than many in life adhere to today. He obviously wants to improve himself -- but to do that, he doesn't pursue wealth, he pursues public service in Starfleet, he tries to do something as meaningful as his father's saving the crew of the Kelvin. He risks his standing in Starfleet (by challenging its authority structures when he thinks they're making horrible mistakes) and his life numerous times to save the people of Vulcan and Earth and to save his fellow officers.

And when Nero is defeated and in need of rescue from a black hole of his own creation at the end, he offers Nero mercy and assistance -- only turning his guns on Nero when Nero rejects his assistance and declares his continued intention to kill as many Federates as possible, necessitating that his ship be destroyed so as to prevent it from harming anyone else on the other side of that black hole if it should happen to survive a trip through a black hole yet again, as it did when it crossed over from the Prime Universe to the Nu Universe.

WHEN did he become a scientist during the film to come to that conclusionon just how Red Matter works?...Let alone a Black Hole?...

Presumably, during the three years between his recruitment into Starfleet by Captain Pike and when the majority of the film takes place. You know, when he was attending Starfleet Academy.

But that's actually a critique of the plot, not a critique of the character. This discussion is not about whether or not the film as structured is logically plausible, it's about whether or not nuKirk's value system is sufficiently enlightened.

By criticizing the plot structure, you are moving the goalposts.

NuKirk may not be as pompous and stately, may be a little rougher and more informal, more working class, but his behavior still reflects a belief in an enlightened, egalitarian value system -- even if he's still maturing as a person.

NO he is more arrogant and self-absorbed

I'll concede that he's arrogant, but that's true of plenty of "enlightened" characters throughout ST. Picard is very arrogant, especially during the first few seasons of TNG. Spock is exceedingly arrogant, as Kirk, throughout TOS. No one is saying these characters are perfect -- that is, again, not the issue. The issue is whether or not they believe in something beyond themselves and care about other people.

I, however, reject the notion that nuKirk is self-absorbed -- at least outside of his personal life. The man is certainly driven by ambition and ego (as was TOSKirk), but he also didn't hesitate to join the away team mission to skydive down to the Narada driller -- nor, from there, to jump after nuSulu in an attempt to save his life when he did not know that the Enterprise would just beam them both up. And in the mission to the Narada at the climax of the film, he endangered his own life by seeking to confront Nero while nuSpock stole the Jellyfish (and therefore got to do the actual glory work of saving the Enterprise and the Earth).

NuKirk is self-absorbed when it comes to his personal life, I'd concede -- though I think he starts to grow out if it as the film goes on. Certainly the way he treats Gaila is a reflection of a fair amount of self-absorption in his personal life. But that's not the same thing as his being an entirely self-absorbed person.

In other words, nuKirk is a three-dimensional character -- with both admirable strengths and regrettable weaknesses of character. He's not perfect, but neither is he a mindless frat boy.

The REAL Kirk had a moments in his life that made him who he was. And that is that he could overcome adversity by working hard in whatever he set as his goal, for success. Unlike ST2009's where he was dumbed down so todays kids which are mostly slackers, and to put it mildy lazy-asses, could get into the character.

Wow. Stereotyping, ageism, and elitism all in one sentence. Very prejudiced. Not very in-keeping with Star Trek's value system.

So glad you are a master in Star Treks value system.

Star Trek has always been opposed to the kind of stereotyping in which you indulged when you accused vast numbers of people whom you've never met of being "slackers" and "lazy asses."

His motivation? I have no clue.

Then you weren't paying attention.

Love that response from the PRO 2009 faction....

NuKirk's motivations were very clearly laid out in the scene at the bar with Captain Pike. If anything, his motivations were made too obvious -- the film might as well have hit the audience over the head while shouting, "HE! WANTS! TO! FEEL! VALUED! BY! ACCOMPLISHING! SOMETHING! AS! MEANINGFUL! AS! HIS! FATHER! DID! AND! BY! PROVING! THAT! HE! CAN! BE! A! GOOD! LEADER!"

ST09 was not a subtle film. If you can't figure out his motivations, you weren't paying attention.

 

[Captain Mike]

^ no point in an argument, you have your biased opinion on the film as well as mine.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

He does not act like he belives in a higher ideal in the movie.

It seems to be all about himself, he hadnt preached the Federation gospel even once.

This is the core difference in the Prime U and Abrams U characters. Another core difference is that new Kirk doesn't act like he really cares about other people the way Prime U Kirk did.

The rationale behind this difference (I hope) is to give new Kirk a character arc. He can't start out being Prime U Kirk and have an arc because then he's already at the destination.

So it doesn't matter if new Kirk's initial motive is just adventure or what-the-hell-ness or because Starfleet is just chock full of hot Orion chicks. That's just where the character starts. It gives them something to write about for the next movie that's more than just "what villain are we going to trot out this time?"

As far as i am concerned DS 9 is the best Trek ever.

I dont need the Starfleet gospel.

Hmm. Either you don't get the Starfleet gospel, or you didn't get DS9. Those are not incompatible. In fact, only TOS and DS9 did a good job of exploring the Starfleet gospel. I hope you don't think the Starfleet gospel is just Picard giving aliens a condescending lecture about their wicked ways and then flying away.

 

[Sci]

^ no point in an argument, you have your biased opinion on the film as well as mine.

That's a strange turn of phrase. "Biased opinion." As opposed to what, an unbiased opinion? Opinions are inherently biased, because they involve evaluating evidence to reach subjective opinions. That does not mean that some opinions do not have stronger arguments backing them up than others; all opinions are not made equal.

 

[Captain Mike]

^ no point in an argument, you have your biased opinion on the film as well as mine.

That's a strange turn of phrase. "Biased opinion." As opposed to what, an unbiased opinion? Opinions are inherently biased, because they involve evaluating evidence to reach subjective opinions. That does not mean that some opinions do not have stronger arguments backing them up than others; all opinions are not made equal.

Biased as you have your own opinion on what you think Star Trek is, as to my own. I mean the generalization, and that is the a point saved for another thread. Definitely NOT throwing in supposition in on what FAKE Kirk's motivation is.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Come on, you said you had no clue as to Kirk's motivaton, when its made quite clear in the film.

 

[Yevetha]

" Hmm. Either you don't get the Starfleet gospel, or you didn't get DS9. Those are not incompatible. In fact, only TOS and DS9 did a good job of exploring the Starfleet gospel. I hope you don't think the Starfleet gospel is just Picard giving aliens a condescending lecture about their wicked ways and then flying away."

i know its more than that.

As far as Trek i want a more or less a functioning government with nonscumbag politicians.

They can go as far as libertarianism in terms of economics, i dont care.

Trek stories are primarily about Starfleet.

 

[Admiral Shran]

As far as Trek i want a more or less a functioning government with nonscumbag politicians.

And that's why Trek is pure fantasy. Exceptionally few politicians, in a utopian society or not, will ever be non-scumbags.

 

[Yevetha]

We never know the long term future.

But right now we are stuck with scumbags.

 

[Sci]

As far as Trek i want a more or less a functioning government with nonscumbag politicians.

And that's why Trek is pure fantasy. Exceptionally few politicians, in a utopian society or not, will ever be non-scumbags.

You know, the thing about politicians is, at the end of the day, most of them aren't scumbags -- and most of them aren't saints. Most -- not all, but most -- of them are just people like you and me: neither as good as they ought to be nor as awful as others think.

No one is as good of a person as they would like to be. And most of us aren't as bad as those we hurt think us to be.

So it is with politicians. They're just people whose flaws get more attention.

 

[Yevetha]

" You know, the thing about politicians is, at the end of the day, most of them aren't scumbags -- and most of them aren't saints. Most -- not all, but most -- of them are just people like you and me: neither as good as they ought to be nor as awful as others think."

If they are jsut like you and i why are they almost alway portrayed as scumbags on television.

They do everything they can to portray themselves in a positive light yet they never succed.

"
No one is as good of a person as they would like to be. And most of us aren't as bad as those we hurt think us to be."

I dont think most people would put trough someone for cheating on his wife through what Clintons had been trough. They would treat both the cheater and the cheated much more respectfully.

I say it despite not liking the Clintons.

"

So it is with politicians. They're just people whose flaws get more attention."

I woould not kill half million people with UN sanctions given the oppurtunity.

Albright said they were necessary casualties.

 

[Paradon]

I agree with you! You have to have pretty thick skin to be politicians to get that kind of attention and still be able to work like nothing really happened. Most politicians are power hunger and attention seekers; that's true. I wouldn't go into politic because i can't handle that kind of stress. But they're not all that bad...you just have put your foot down and say enough is enough. [laugh] This is why I'm worry what will happen if we hand over the power to politicians so they can make laws that can govern our lives.

I think Kirk is the same way. He that kind of people who knows he's smart and thinks being smart will take care of everything and he loves attention and power. That's probably why he remains single until the day he died. I've met some of the most stubborn and singled minded military officers (and, plus, my grandfather used to be one) and even they got married and have a lot of children. My grandfather was very strict and command a lot of respect. I was afraid of him and so was everybody in the neighborhood. He beat up armed robbers and turned them over the police, but he still got married and mind you, he loved his children, and getting married and starting up a family was part of his plan. Kirk must be in love with himself to pass up the opportunity to get married. [laugh]

A lot of these tough army officers are not as bad as you think. A lot of them have a soft spot for their wives and children, and they do show a lot of affections to their children and wives. Everyone who knew my grandfather said he was a very honorable and respectable man. He helped his family with money a lot and even turned down inheritance because he thought that money should have gone to someone else. He wasn't running around causing trouble when he didn't get something he wanted like the way we see Kirk did in "Star Trek". He was always in control and cool. To tell you the truth I was afraid of him because he likes to disaplin me by giving some whooping. Sometimes i get swelt marks all over my legs. He was particularly tough with boys. He was a pretty tough guy which kindda reminds me of the Jem'Hadar guard.

 

[Warped9]

^^ You don't really understand Kirk. A lot of men (and women) don't get married for numerous reasons. Sometimes it can be that while you may have serious relationships none of them are as fulfilling as you hoped. I think many of us know single people who would rather not be single, but for some reason or other haven't found someone yet, and they could already be in their forties or fifties. Some sadly never find anyone.

There can also be the realization that your job/career is so demanding that you don't have much time for family. A military career on Earth could be tolerable if you have the right spouse who can accept long absences. But those absences might be only months. But a Starfleet Officer posted to a deep space ship could be gone for years at a stretch.

Today we have cops, firefighters, doctors, lawyers and all manner of jobs where the spouse can't handle the demands of the job on their relationship or marriage and so the couple splits. Some can handle it and some can't.

 

[Paradon]

Most people would choose to get married if they had the chance. Staying married is another story. I know people that gave up their career to be with someone they love. On rare occasion you get people who don't wan to get married even if they could... Usually, those people are pretty conceded; they think they got everything figured out and being extremely smart and successful would take care of everything. Like I said: falling in love and getting married is the norm, but whether or not you want to stay married is another story. DS9 got it right when they showed Sisko falling in love and getting married twice. A lot do think they can get by without a woman or man in their lives; that is until the right man or woman come a long. [laugh] Been there done that! It's like she hit me over the head and I've never really woken up yet! Steve Irwin said the same thing. He thought his job and career in helping to save the environment and animals was the most important thing there was. He said he don't need no woman! It was a waste of time for him, he thought! That was until his wife, Terry, came along one day to visit the zoo which he owned. He said she was the most beautiful woman he had ever met and he described it as: she hit him over the head and he hadn't woken up yet from a dream. It was love at first sight, literally! The guy was madly in love with his wife until the day he died. She lid up his life like nothing anybody can describe and he had a second crush when his daughter was born. He said his daughter was the most important thing in his life.

 

[Warped9]

^^ I think you're over generalizing. There are a lot of people who have no great desire to be married and yet they are still warm, generous good people. Marriage and family aren't for everyone---sometimes out of choice and sometimes out of circumstance.

 

[Paradon]

That's what they all say until...oh...she came along... I used to be that way. I didn't really want to a girlfriend because I wanted to focus other things, but she came a long and you know how it goes about the birds and bees. And I can tell you from personal experience that people who do not desire to be around other people or get to know other people on a personal level are very irritating. And even those people still get married. I hate to say this but my mom is one of them, but got married anyway when she was young. They all started out just like everybody else, but some people loose interest a long the way as they get older and tend to focus more on their work at older age. I can't really stand to be around my mom a lot of the time. She doesn't like anybody...luckily she trust me but she still give me an ear full every chance she gets. My friend's dad is also the same way... He's Always grumpy and don't really like to meat anybody. It takes an exceptional person not to really give women even a try when they were young. I might understand if they were older. There is one person who live down the block who don't really like anybody and all he does is maintain his home. He is weird beyond reason. Nobody ever spoke to him and the only time he speaks is when he yells at the kids playing on his lawn. Trust me on this one! Humans are program to be that way. it doesn't matter if you are a freaking Captain of a Federation star ship or goat herder. We all love the attention given by the opposite sex.

 

[Warped9]

^^ You cannot use one person in your life as an example of a broad swath of people.

Human beings can have a compelling drive to mate but not necessarily spend their lives with one person. Also, although it is a biological urge to procreate at the core of it most people today don't consciously think of sex as just an act to make babies. Beyond procreation sex (in vary degrees) is also an expression of feelings as well as pleasureful recreation.

Bottom line is many people can have urges yet not be suitable for long term commitments.

Also falling in love is something of a biologically, chemical induced euphoria that can often enough skew your perspective in the short term. The key is being able to maintain some measure of perspective and objectivity about yourself and the other person.

 

[Paradon]

That's not true. Humans are social animals, so we love the attention we get from other people. People who dont admit that they do still want to be loved and seek the attention of others. However, the ways they go about getting it maybe questionable. For example, they may outright bully other people into submitting to their will either by using their intelligent or brute force. Everybody falls in love if they met the right person(s). I know a lot of people who cares more about their work than other people and I can tell you, they aren't very pleasant to be around. At one time when they were young, these people did get married if the met the right person, but...like I said...somehow something happened a long the way and they loose interest. How can we not care about the birds and the bees? That is our purpose here on earth. Maintaining perspective without letting our emotions get in the way is easier said than done. Believe me! I've gone through it! Love makes people do crazy things...things that they wouldn't normally do. Have you ever heard of someone's duaghters or sons running away with some bimbos or tough guys? I tell you it's crazy! It drives me crazy and I will never forget the fist time I had a crush. I cried and couldn't stop when my mom told me I couldn't see her anymore because she was talking back to my mom. And you know how my mom is? [laugh]

 

[Warped9]

I don't know how old you are, but I certainly do know what it is to be in love and how it can compel you to do things you wouldn't normally consider. And older people can be just as impulsive as young ones.

I, too, cried, when I lost my first love so many years ago, but I learned something from it. Presently I feel very strongly for someone and it's wonderful, and fortunately I have enough experience to enjoy the experience yet still maintain a measure of objectivity. No, I don't question everything, but I don't blindly accept everything either.

Yes, people are social animals, but they are manifest in so many different ways that you cannot make broad generalizations about them.