What are junior officers?
- Thread starter RB_Kandy
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Their rank just means they have authority over lower ranking officers and crewmen in their department. They have no authority over superior or junior officers outside of the medical department. It's their position as a Doctor that gives them authority over others in medical situations not their rank.Here's a question regarding rank, what rank does a doctor have? Like McCoy, Bashir, Flox, Crusher. I'm aware that in medical circumstances, the doctor has full jurisdiction, including ordering a captain to have an exam, or go to bed, and relieving them of duty if the doctor feels they are no longer fit. Also, no officer has the authority to force their hand when it comes to a medical procedure.
In regards to non medical circumstances, what rank do they have authority over?
I know McCoy has authority over everyone who isn't Kirk and Spock, because... because you don't want to piss off McCoy
As a Captain, Sisko out ranks Bashier. As CMO, Bashier has authority over Sisko in medical matters.
It's more likely that Starfleet Command placed O'Brien in the position of Chief of Operations.
As per "A Man Alone", O'Brien was promised a promotion if he came to DS9. His rank pin did not change, nor does it seem plausible that his rank would have increased regardless of pins - and he stood to lose the promotion if he applied for reassignment. So this "promotion" would appear to be in terms of assignment status only, meaning somebody promised to make O'Brien Chief of Ops at DS9, an exceptional assignment for a Senior CPO (Specialist) and apparently not available for them at other space stations.
It could have been Sisko making that promise, but we aren't privy to any sort of common past or other backstory for the two men. For all we know, they first met when Sisko found O'Brien doing salvage at the Promenade in "Emissary", and Sisko hadn't even looked through the Chief's file yet.
Timo Saloniemi
It could have been Sisko making that promise, but we aren't privy to any sort of common past or other backstory for the two men. For all we know, they first met when Sisko found O'Brien doing salvage at the Promenade in "Emissary", and Sisko hadn't even looked through the Chief's file yet.
Timo Saloniemi
The way rank is portrayed on Star Trek is one of my biggest pet peeves. I don't think it was malicious intent on the part of the writers, but it certainly did show a lack of research on their part, as well as on the part of the costume department.
I was hoping that if Star Trek were ever rebooted (or a new TV show), there would be writers who would pay more attention to rank. Its one of the coolest little Easter Eggs in each episode for me, seeing what rank each person is.
But then, Star Trek '09 came out, and we got the whole boondoggle of a 3rd year suspended cadet being rapidly promoted to Captain of a ship, and not just any ship but the flagship. I know the intent was to get Kirk to become Captain by the time credits rolled, but if that were real life it would never have happened that way. Admiral Tyler Perry would have simply said, "Cadet Kirk, we thank you for saving Earth from Eric Bana. In recognition of your efforts, you're hearby presented with this commendation and immediately promoted to Ensign. Report to the Lexington."
I was hoping that if Star Trek were ever rebooted (or a new TV show), there would be writers who would pay more attention to rank. Its one of the coolest little Easter Eggs in each episode for me, seeing what rank each person is.
But then, Star Trek '09 came out, and we got the whole boondoggle of a 3rd year suspended cadet being rapidly promoted to Captain of a ship, and not just any ship but the flagship. I know the intent was to get Kirk to become Captain by the time credits rolled, but if that were real life it would never have happened that way. Admiral Tyler Perry would have simply said, "Cadet Kirk, we thank you for saving Earth from Eric Bana. In recognition of your efforts, you're hearby presented with this commendation and immediately promoted to Ensign. Report to the Lexington."
O'Brien should probably have been promoted from a Chief Petty Officer to a Master Chief Petty Officer. Not that I understand what that means.
They did similar weird stuff with Janice Rand. She was never formally given a rank in TOS (Yeoman being a position and not a rank) but she displayed the rank of a Chief Petty Officer in TMP so she was most likely (as she was in a senior position) a petty officer in TOS. In the fan production Phase II they decided to make her an ensign, overlooking her rank in TMP. In Star Trek III she was in an officer's uniform (a Lt-commander rank I think) then in Star Trek IV she was back in a CPO uniform. Then in STVI she's back in an officer's uniform and in Voyager she claims that it took her 2 years to make ensign, which makes little sense either given her early career as an NCO...
They did similar weird stuff with Janice Rand. She was never formally given a rank in TOS (Yeoman being a position and not a rank) but she displayed the rank of a Chief Petty Officer in TMP so she was most likely (as she was in a senior position) a petty officer in TOS. In the fan production Phase II they decided to make her an ensign, overlooking her rank in TMP. In Star Trek III she was in an officer's uniform (a Lt-commander rank I think) then in Star Trek IV she was back in a CPO uniform. Then in STVI she's back in an officer's uniform and in Voyager she claims that it took her 2 years to make ensign, which makes little sense either given her early career as an NCO...
Master Chief is simply a further promotion in the rank of Petty Officer. He would still have to take orders from an Ensign either way.
What SHOULD have happened with O'Brien is for him to have gone to Starfleet Academy and gotten a commission as an officer, and then be held up as the posterchild for working it the hard way and being successful. But then again, they were inconsistent as hell with Starfleet Academy, since other non-officers went there, too.
I think the general consensus is that the Grace Lee Whitney character that appeared in ST:IV was not Janice Rand (but rather her identical twin sister that we've never heard about), but that's a fishy explanation. Likewise, Tim Russ was in Generations.
O'Brien's rank is one of those headache-inducing things, but in the end it seemed as if they settled on him being a master chief (his final rank insignia seemed the closest to that grade in the US Navy). But Starfleet being Starfleet, he's called a senior chief instead.
But then Starfleet is really its own kind of thing, IMO. There are plenty of similarities to the US Navy in its rank structure, but some noticeable differences too. Such things might be expected if Starfleet is an organization that only loosely modeled itself on the Navy.
But then Starfleet is really its own kind of thing, IMO. There are plenty of similarities to the US Navy in its rank structure, but some noticeable differences too. Such things might be expected if Starfleet is an organization that only loosely modeled itself on the Navy.
In US Navy practice, yeoman is a rating, which is an inherent part of a petty officer's rank. Judging from "Yeoman 3rd Class" Lawton in "Charlie X," Starfleet practice is similar. Rand's full title would most likely be "yeoman (x) class," but it seems to be common practice to address those of that rating as simply "yeoman" in ordinary situations.
Justin
No, she clearly is Janice Rand. TUC might leave some wiggle room, but Flashback makes it pretty damn clear.
There is obviously no connection between Tuvok and the guy Tim Russ played in Generations. The guy in Generations is clearly human.
Another thing I'm not clear on...
TOS and TNG referred to "crewman" on occasion.
I don't know if they were using it as a general term of address, as if calling someone "shipmate".
Or was it a rank similar to today's "airman 2nd class" or "seaman 1st class"?
I guess ST equivalent would be "spaceman 1st class" but using "spaceman" might seem silly so they went with "crewman".
Or is that wrong? ST's "crewman" is a general term of address, not a rank?
TOS and TNG referred to "crewman" on occasion.
I don't know if they were using it as a general term of address, as if calling someone "shipmate".
Or was it a rank similar to today's "airman 2nd class" or "seaman 1st class"?
I guess ST equivalent would be "spaceman 1st class" but using "spaceman" might seem silly so they went with "crewman".
Or is that wrong? ST's "crewman" is a general term of address, not a rank?
Well the lower Naval ranks below petty officer are called "Seamen, Seaman Apprentice, etc." so I think they changed it to crewman seeing as the term "seamen" didn't make much sense in space.
Read it again, dude. I said Star Trek IV, not Star Trek VI.
In any event, after taking a quick look at Memory Alpha, I was actually thinking of Star Trek III anyway. Grace Lee Whitney plays an unnamed Commander, while in Star Trek IV she is back to being a Master Chief. But she should have been at least an Ensign in Star Trek IV, because she was supposed to have been an officer at this point.
So either someone in costumes or one of the writers goofed.
Maybe this is a result of a never mentioned OCS? (Officer Candidate School)
I'm all well and good with OCS. It makes sense. Someone like Rand deserves to become an officer.
What peeves me is when characters have unexplained jumps up and down in rank insignia. Rand isn't the only example:
-The previously mentioned O'Brien, who is depicted as an Ensign, Lt JG, Full Lt, no rank, enlisted rank, and Chief Insignia
-Tuvok, who wears Lt Cmdr insignia for the first handful of episodes in season 1, then suddenly wears Lt insignia, and then finally is officially promoted to Lt Cmdr
-Chakotay, who wears Lt Cmdr rank the entire time on Voyager, but is always referred to as a full Cmdr, and is even supposed to be a former Starfleet instructor with the rank of Cmdr
-Saavik, who is referred to as a Lt, but who for some reason or another is simultaneously in the academy as a cadet? I know there are various fan-on explanations for this, but none really satisfy me more than a simple script error.
-The entire Star Trek '09 film, which makes zero sense when it comes to rank structure
There are other examples. Like I said earlier, I love watching for rank in the movies and series, its a cool little Easter Egg for fans who like to pay attention to subtle things like the number of pips on a collar or stripes on a sleeve. I even do this for modern military movies like Crimson Tide, Hunt for Red October, shoot even the GI Joe movie had uniforms. I just don't like it when someone in costuming/screenwriting screws up.
One of the things I did like about Star Trek II is that it was the first movie that really depicted how many enlisted crew there must actually be on a starship. There must be hundreds of them for every officer. I wish this was carried over to the other movies/series more appropriately. Not everyone goes to Starfleet Academy.
I think Valeris is wearing a Lt-commander or commander epaulets because her costume was originally made for Saavik. I'd forgotten the goof with Tuvok.
The Star trek III goof is simple. Rand was attending a fancy dress party in the officer's lounge and she decided to turn up as an officer instead of an orion slave girl like last year.
The Star trek III goof is simple. Rand was attending a fancy dress party in the officer's lounge and she decided to turn up as an officer instead of an orion slave girl like last year.
O'Brien was known as "Chief Petty Officer" back when he wore two pips in TNG "Family". This designation ITRL covers three ranks, from CPO to Senior CPO to Master CPO, plus an "honorary" rank of MCPO of the Fleet, for a ceremonial representative of sorts for the entire enlisted force. No other TNG episode mentioned his rank, regardless of whether he wore one bright pip, two bright pips or one dark pip.
O'Brien was subsequently called "Senior Chief (Specialist)" in DS9 "Playing God" while wearing the single dark pip familiar from late TNG episodes. This is consistent with him being a "Chief Petty Officer", but it's a bit odd that the second rung on the CPO rank ladder would be marked with a single pip.
O'Brien then gets his collar plate showing three chevrons and two pips. This would logically indicate CPO rank (he has collected all three chevrons from lower PO ranks) of the second level (two pips). Granted, in the USN system, the second level is indicated by a single pip, but that's because the first level is indicated by a "rocker" adjoining the chevrons, and this is not part of the Starfleet style as per O'Brien's plate. Wearing the plate, O'Brien is identified as "Chief Petty Officer" in "Hippocratic Oath", this being generically correct and consistent for his supposed SCPO (Specialist) rank. Master CPO would no doubt be expressed as three chevrons and three pips...
Now, which parts of O'Brien's collar decoration do we call "erroneous"? We can easily claim that the pips in TNG were always of the dark sort, and also that the dark is clearly distinct from the "half pip" of commissioned officer ranks. Our TV sets deceive our eyes worse than that all the time. But the number of pips is more difficult to handwave away.
One pip gets votes because it's seen in more episodes. But two pips would be nice because it would be consistent with his later collar plates and with the fact that he's SCPO rather than mere "simple" CPO... So, for maximum consistency, the redoing of TNG episodes should extend to giving him an extra pip in all the episodes from "Realm of Fear" onwards - as well as removing the bright glare from the pips whenever possible.
If we decided that the half a dozen clear and precise dialogue references to him being Lieutenant in S1 were "in error", then it would be rather simple to assume that he got demoted due to leading a mutiny in "Prime Factors" and his rank was merely restored later on. This would also explain why Harry Kim never gets a promotion: Janeway would refuse to give any promotions, ever, presumably feeling she wasn't entitled to doing so without contact with home base, and every instance of extra pips appearing on the characters would be of rank restoration, not promotion.
However, it's pretty damn difficult to imagine anybody re-editing VOY to remove the offending S1 dialogue...
Why should this be a problem? It's formally correct through and through - there's no way to tell whether a person called "Commander" is full or not.
Saavik is never referred to as cadet in the movie.
Rather, Peter Preston is called "midshipman" which means pretty much the same thing. So supposedly, his rank insignia and uniform style are the identifying factors of a cadet. Saavik and several other jacketed officers are not cadets, then, despite being young and participating in training. Remember that Kobayashi Maru is an optional test; odds are that the people taking it are postgraduate students!
No objection, your honor. None whatsoever. Please take my client to the gallows as soon as possible!
Well, we didn't really see that, because we were following the adventures of a schoolship!
Timo Saloniemi
Also, the actual first officer of Voyager, who is promptly killed off in the pilot, is a lieutenant commander. Introduced formally as such in dialogue. So it makes sense they would have made Chakotay the same rank.
Additionally, the episode "Preemptive Strike" in TNG was meant to be a setup of sorts for Voyager and Ro's reference to her instructor who left to join the Maquis was meant to be a subtle reference to Chakotay. And in that dialogue, she refers to her instructor as "a lieutenant commander in Starfleet." Were that true, it would make sense for Janeway to restore him to the rank he held before.
However, there is one thing I find odd about it. While it is command practice to refer to a lieutenant commander as simply "commander" in day-to-day usage, generally, at least in Trek, when they are making formal introductions, they use the full rank. For example, Kirk would say "Lieutenant Commander Spock" or Picard would say "Lieutenant Commander Data" when introducing his officers to the alien of the week. Even when Janeway introduces Cavit to Paris and Kim, she says "Lieutenant Commander Cavit." But Janeway always said simply "Commander Chakotay," which would normally, to me, indicate that he is actually a full commander.
Still, I think the easiest explanation is that Chakotay is a lieutenant commander.
Yes, in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" - despite Spock wearing the full Commander braid, confusing the issue! Similarly, he accuses Giotto of being less than full Commander, despite the evidence of the braid.
So perhaps we should rather pick a less ambiguous case and argue that he also introduces his engineer as "Lieutenant Commander Scott" rather than "Commander Scott".
...Or does he?
Like, ever?
Timo Saloniemi
The original unnamed CMO on Voyager was also a Lt. Cmdr, before his untimely death.
Several of the background characters on Voyager are also alternately referred to as Ensign and Crewman, either with pips or without. This I can forgive, because they're not main cast and relatively unimportant to the plot.
I do have to say that without a doubt one of the coolest Easter Eggs for me has to be on Deep Space 9 when we meet the real Julian Bashir at the Dominion Internment Camp. He has presumably been a prisoner for several weeks, and is wearing the Voyager/DS9 s1-s3 style uniform, rather than the First Contact style uniform. In the preceding weeks before this episode, Deep Space 9 officers switched over to the new uniforms, but since Bashir was a prisoner and had been replaced by a Changling, he's still wearing the old uniform! Coolest Easter Egg, ever.
Several of the background characters on Voyager are also alternately referred to as Ensign and Crewman, either with pips or without. This I can forgive, because they're not main cast and relatively unimportant to the plot.
I do have to say that without a doubt one of the coolest Easter Eggs for me has to be on Deep Space 9 when we meet the real Julian Bashir at the Dominion Internment Camp. He has presumably been a prisoner for several weeks, and is wearing the Voyager/DS9 s1-s3 style uniform, rather than the First Contact style uniform. In the preceding weeks before this episode, Deep Space 9 officers switched over to the new uniforms, but since Bashir was a prisoner and had been replaced by a Changling, he's still wearing the old uniform! Coolest Easter Egg, ever.
