What am I missing re: the destruction of the XINDI homeworld

[Mutara Nebula 1967]

I feel dumb for asking this but I still don't understand.
If the XINDI planet was already destroyed do they think earth will destroy it if its already gone? Do they think Earth destroyed it in the past and if so how? Or are they worried about Earth trying to destroy their colonies? (I'm assuming the different species are all spread out in colonies if there is no home world)

Thanks to anyone who can clear this up. It's very confusing.

 

[JiNX-01]

Mutara Nebula 1967 said:
I feel dumb for asking this but I still don't understand.
If the XINDI planet was already destroyed do they think earth will destroy it if its already gone? Do they think Earth destroyed it in the past and if so how? Or are they worried about Earth trying to destroy their colonies? (I'm assuming the different species are all spread out in colonies if there is no home world)

Thanks to anyone who can clear this up. It's very confusing.

Hmmmm.... That's a good question. IIRC (and it's been a while, so I could be wrong), but I think the other-universe aliens had told them they would eventually have a new homeworld where all the species could be together again (they're scattered right now) and that humanity would destroy that world in 400 years.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Mutara Nebula 1967 said:
I feel dumb for asking this but I still don't understand.
If the XINDI planet was already destroyed do they think earth will destroy it if its already gone?

Who is "they" that you are referencing? If Archer in "The Xindi" then at that stage he wasn't sure if 1)FG lied to him about why the Xindi wanted to destroy Earth or 2)if something else is going on like Kessick, the human-looking Xindi perhaps giving Phlox coordinates to a destroyed colony in order to mislead Archer.

Do they think Earth destroyed it in the past and if so how? Or are they worried about Earth trying to destroy their colonies? (I'm assuming the different species are all spread out in colonies if there is no home world)

The Xindi arc I've always seen as an early attempt to forge the kind of storytelling style that Lost and Heroes uses--lots of questions that you leave confused at first.

Those questions you are posing are the same ones Archer had and it was only through continued investigation over the season does it all become clearer for him as well as the audience.

As far as the Xindi they knew all along why they were out to destroy Earth--the Sphere Builders told them Earth would destroy their new homeworld in 400 years not their original world. In "The Shipment" we learned the Xindi themselves destroyed their own homeworld in a civil war. So the Xindi had to know how their first world was destroyed.

 

[Noname Given]

Mutara Nebula 1967 said:
I feel dumb for asking this but I still don't understand.
If the XINDI planet was already destroyed do they think earth will destroy it if its already gone? Do they think Earth destroyed it in the past and if so how? Or are they worried about Earth trying to destroy their colonies? (I'm assuming the different species are all spread out in colonies if there is no home world)

Thanks to anyone who can clear this up. It's very confusing.

Remember that 'The Xindi Council' was originally formed to find a new homeworld for the Xindi (although Degra stated when a promising candidate world was found, they couldn't agree); and that the 'Guardians' stated Earth would attack and destroy the Xindi homeworld in/of the 26th century; so by that time they obviously did find one (although that then brings up the qiestion as to why the Guiardians didn't tell them WHERE the homeworld was - so they could move to it in the 22nd century).

Bottom Line: I think when they decided to go with the Xindi full season arc storyline at the end of season 2; all the particulars hadn't been worked out, and when they started Season 3; Brannon Braga probably thought it would be a 'cool' twist to say that the Xindi had destroyed their original homeworld themselves earlier.

In the end, it was all just a plot device.

 

[archeryguy1701]

As I recall, the Xindi destroyed their first homeworld through war with each other. They found a new home world, and the time-traveling aliens told them the humanity would show up and wreck the new world eventually.

 

[JiNX-01]

Noname Given said:

Mutara Nebula 1967 said:
I feel dumb for asking this but I still don't understand.
If the XINDI planet was already destroyed do they think earth will destroy it if its already gone? Do they think Earth destroyed it in the past and if so how? Or are they worried about Earth trying to destroy their colonies? (I'm assuming the different species are all spread out in colonies if there is no home world)

Thanks to anyone who can clear this up. It's very confusing.

Remember that 'The Xindi Council' was originally formed to find a new homeworld for the Xindi (although Degra stated when a promising candidate world was found, they couldn't agree); and that the 'Guardians' stated Earth would attack and destroy the Xindi homeworld in/of the 26th century; so by that time they obviously did find one (although that then brings up the qiestion as to why the Guiardians didn't tell them WHERE the homeworld was - so they could move to it in the 22nd century).

Bottom Line: I think when they decided to go with the Xindi full season arc storyline at the end of season 2; all the particulars hadn't been worked out, and when they started Season 3; Brannon Braga probably thought it would be a 'cool' twist to say that the Xindi had destroyed their original homeworld themselves earlier.

In the end, it was all just a plot device.

Yeah, it was pretty obvious to me that they had no idea what they were going to do with Season 3. They just had a really cool setup to close out season 2.

But, as to the Xindi finding a new homeworld:

The Guardians were lying to the Xindi about their doomed future.

The Guardians were responsible for the spheres which were reconfiguring our galaxy to suit their environmental needs.

The Xindi lived within the Expanse which was created by the spheres.

Had the Guardians' plans succeeded, conditions in the Expanse would have obliterated the Xindi long before we got a chance to wipe them out.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Noname Given said:
Bottom Line: I think when they decided to go with the Xindi full season arc storyline at the end of season 2; all the particulars hadn't been worked out, and when they started Season 3; Brannon Braga probably thought it would be a 'cool' twist to say that the Xindi had destroyed their original homeworld themselves earlier.

I'm not so sure about that. Looking back there were a few things that didn't pan out like the book Tarquin gave Hoshi but overall I thought the arc held together whether made on the go or planned out early on.

It held together very well and all the questions were answered. Each episode for the most part advanced the story and built plausibly on what came before.

In the end, it was all just a plot device.

Disagree. It served many important roles within the story. It threw into doubt the veracity of what FG told him. It added an extra layer of intrigue and confusion. It also served as a temporary setback to hold off in reaching the council.

It also fit nicely into the Xindi mythology the show created. It made sense five different species would have internal struggles over dominance and I could believe there would be a long history of wars and the most aggressive would foolishly and impulsively destroy it.

Also it helped to shed light on why the Xindi would take such extreme action(destroying humanity). They had already lost one world and knew what it was to be divided so the idea they would rebuild but the humans would destroy it provided enough motivation.

Also it provided a opportunity to tie together some loose threads into a cohesive sensible whole. It explained why the Sphere Builders were trusted by the Xindi-they helped them after the destruction. Also by being spread out in colonies in the Expanse and hard feelings there was no reason to come together until th Sphere Builders bring the parties together for reconciliation.

All of that wouldn't have been possible without the destruction of the original homeworld so hardly a plot device IMO.

 

[startrekwatcher]

JiNX-01 said:Yeah, it was pretty obvious to me that they had no idea what they were going to do with Season 3. They just had a really cool setup to close out season 2.

I don't know about that. They had already decided that the Xindi were going to be comprised of different races and the Expanse was artificially created and it would cease to exist in order to explain why it was never heard of in subsequent series.

Plus the story generated its own framework I thought. After watching "The Expanse" at the end of season two I had a general idea of how it would work out. Earth wasn't going to be detroyed. Archer would have to get proof to counter whatever the Council were given by XFG in order to change their minds about destroying Earth and that would require a visit to the future in order to get it. There'd need to be a visit to the 26th century to see why Xindi really wanted Earth destroyed.

Earth was targeted for destruction most likely because of its role in forming the Federation which thwarted most likely some future race we had or hadn't seen. The odds were low the Federation destroyed Xindi homeworld intentionally or as aggressors. All the writers had to do was fill in the gaps which they did well.

 

[JiNX-01]

They might have had a rough idea, but it seemed to me that they didn't have a clear concept for the season, so we got filler episodes like Extinction, Exile, Rajiin, North Star, Carpenter Street, Hatchery, Doctor's Orders, all of which added little -- if anything -- to the arc.

Meanwhile, there's this horrific event and we never get to see the effects back on Earth. Might have been kind of neat to have a member of the crew get a "letter" from home in which the writer talks about events going on like Terra Prime's following growing, people getting religion or trying to book passage to a colony, etc. (Tucker might be a nice choice to get a recorded message from his folks since we --inexplicably IMO-- never get to see his family during "The Expanse"). As the letter is read, scenes depicting events are shown on screen.

 

[startrekwatcher]

JiNX-01 said:
They might have had a rough idea, but it seemed to me that they didn't have a clear concept for the season, so we got filler episodes like Extinction, Exile, Rajiin, North Star, Carpenter Street, Hatchery, Doctor's Orders, all of which added little -- if anything -- to the arc.

They really didnt and that is why the season was so uneven. But I think these episodes had less to do with not having an idea and more of a matter of trying to stretch the season out instead of tightening the arc to only last the 12 or so episodes worth of material it had. Or as you suggest they could have used those spots to incorporate more relevant episdes that developed the arc material even more. They could have continued to make the season more complex and dense by bringing in the Suliban/FG, the Tholians etc.

 

[JiNX-01]

startrekwatcher said:

JiNX-01 said:
They might have had a rough idea, but it seemed to me that they didn't have a clear concept for the season, so we got filler episodes like Extinction, Exile, Rajiin, North Star, Carpenter Street, Hatchery, Doctor's Orders, all of which added little -- if anything -- to the arc.

They really didnt and that is why the season was so uneven. But I think these episodes had less to do with not having an idea and more of a matter of trying to stretch the season out instead of tightening the arc to only last the 12 or so episodes worth of material it had.

I agree completely. The only episode in my list that I kind of liked (mainly because it was a "costume" episode), was North Star. I just didn't care for having this side trip plopped down in the middle of a mission in which time was of the essence. Ridiculous.

Or as you suggest they could have used those spots to incorporate more relevant episdes that developed the arc material even more. They could have continued to make the season more complex and dense by bringing in the Suliban/FG, the Tholians etc.

Some thoughts on filling out the season...

Drop the insanely stupid Nazi plot and give our heroes a proper homecoming (like the one we see at the end of Stupid Nazi Episode Part II).

Make Home an arc of a few episodes and give us some consequences for events in the Expanse: Phlox (and possibly Archer) facing charges for using the Lysarian larva to create Sim and then performing a medical procedure on him that they knew would kill him -- surely clones aren't going to be disposable in the 22nd century). And this might have been the opportunity to bring up Trip's feelings about the whole incident. He didn't mention it at the time because so much was at stake, but now that things have settled down...

Archer's guilt over Sim, his actions in Azati Prime (killing the Xindi in the communications outpost, toss in some guilt for Malcolm who did the shooting) and Damage (marooning the aliens without a warp core).

Hoshi develops post-traumatic stress.

Trip introduces T'Pol to his family (maybe the brother who taught him to dance (Fusion) has joined Terra Prime?).

Malcolm gets a call from Harris.

T'Pol is summoned to Vulcan to answer for desertion.

 

[Jack Bauer]

JiNX-01 said:
They might have had a rough idea, but it seemed to me that they didn't have a clear concept for the season, so we got filler episodes like Extinction, Exile, Rajiin, North Star, Carpenter Street, Hatchery, Doctor's Orders, all of which added little -- if anything -- to the arc.

I remember reading that when they started off planning the Xindi arc they hadn't decided if it would take up all of season 3 or just part of it. It wasn't until sometime during season 3 they decided it would take up all of the season so there was some filler episodes in order to stretch it out.

 

[JiNX-01]

Sadly, they weren't compelling filler episodes.

Case in point: Twilight is a filler episode. It has no impact on the mission, but the story is an interesting one, so I like it.

Even North Star, which I do like, was just fun. I would have liked it better if it hadn't been a distraction from this mission that had Archer threatening murder during an interrogation, but he sees this western settlement and suddenly has time to play cowboy for a couple of days? It would have been one thing if he had reason to think there was a Xindi connection, but, absent that, come back some other time.

 

[Trekwatcher]

archeryguy1701 said:
As I recall, the Xindi destroyed their first homeworld through war with each other. They found a new home world, and the time-traveling aliens told them the humanity would show up and wreck the new world eventually.

I think that this is essentially correct. The Xindi destroyed their homeworld (largely due to the reptillians and the insectoids), and for reasons unclear or unstated, all the avians were lost. The Xindi were under the impression that the humans would destroy their new homeworld sometime in the 26th century, hence the superweapon.